Speaker 1: 0:12

Welcome back to the Practical Spirituality Podcast. We are so excited to have you on this journey with us, where we explore all elements of mind, body, emotions and soul through the lens of everyday life.

Speaker 2: 0:29

Hello Kim.

Speaker 1: 0:30

Hello Gareth.

Speaker 2: 0:32

How are you doing this morning?

Speaker 1: 0:33

I am well. I am recovering from the excitement of the last week.

Speaker 2: 0:40

Just another week in the life.

Speaker 1: 0:42

Just another week in the life, that's it.

Speaker 2: 0:45

Well, I think I have another interesting conversation for us to have this morning.

Speaker 1: 0:49

Okay, do tell.

Speaker 2: 0:52

This episode is going to be based off communication breakdown. Okay, I think at the base of this conversation is going to be how a lot of us probably think we're better communicators than what we actually are is going to be how a lot of us probably think we're better communicators than what we actually are. And when other people don't really understand what we're saying, that's when it brings up a lot of emotion or a lot of jumping to conclusions. People just get very triggered and the reality is is that, if you look at it, from a very young age, we've never been taught the art of communicating how we perceive the world and how others perceive the world also, and what we're saying and how, most of the time, most people are not on the same page at all.

Speaker 1: 1:28

No, as you know that, I refer to that as the different maps of the world, and people are usually not on the same page, because we have different backgrounds, we have different cultures, we have different meanings, that we've given different words, and so what we think we're saying could mean something totally different to someone else.

Speaker 2: 1:50

And it's always someone else's fault.

Speaker 1: 1:52

Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 1:56

So when you time that out for 8 billion people, you can say that's a global problem.

Speaker 1: 2:02

Yes, I can it definitely. The frustration comes in because you think you're being very clear, yet you feel like you're not being heard or understood and you don't understand why that's not happening. So you're just assuming which so many of us do that the other person either doesn't care or can't understand you, and that's not always the case. It's just. There's so many different variables when it comes to communication.

Speaker 2: 2:30

I think this is an extension of last week's episode of feeling unseen, unheard, invisible, and why it's important for all of us to understand what does it mean to be a good communicator but not only to other people, but with ourselves internally as well of what's going on within us and where the other person is being triggered in the conversation, how we can use that information to close that gap when communicating with one another. So that's why I thought it'd be very interesting conversation for us to have, because I think we've all been in situations, and all probably will be in situations, where there is a communication breakdown and how being triggered or jumping to the attack is most definitely not the answer in moving forward.

Speaker 1: 3:12

Definitely not the answer in moving forward. Well, I just think, you know, depending on each person's past and what's happened when they've tried to communicate before also plays into that but I think, you know, what is the most harmful is the story we tell ourselves when we feel like we're not being heard or we feel like we're not being understood, because then that adds to different proof that we might already have about communicating, regardless of what that is, you know, and it can be very harmful to your relationships, regardless of what that relationship is, whether that's boss and employee relationship or friend-friend or, you know, a romantic relationship, even sibling relationships. You know, people think because we've grown up in the same house, we will have the same map of the world. But you know, I love that statement where it says every single child has a different mother. And they do, and so, it's true, all of our perceptions become different.

Speaker 2: 4:14

So how our mind codes the world and what we're trying to communicate to the world is completely different, even if we are siblings yeah, I think that's what's interesting even when we all come from the same family, how the communication styles and the way in which we do it is different for every single person. So there is a lot of assumptions that can be made that when we are communicating about a certain event or experience or person, that people around us, even that from the same family, understand what we're talking about, the thoughts or feelings that come along with it, and that couldn't be further from the truth. But I think sometimes, even when we're trying to express what's going on within us or what happened that day, we're so in the flow and often thinking about ourselves that we don't realize that we're not thinking about. The other person maybe doesn't have the complete context of what we're talking about, even when they are listening never mind if they're not, that's a different part of it but even if they are listening and they want to ask questions about it. Sometimes we've all experienced how you can get a bit sharp with the person, or for asking a question, or should.

Speaker 2: 5:16

You do know that or I've told you that, but often we haven't given the context, we overestimate our communication skills. More often than not that can lead to more conflict in those moments and you could argue unnecessary conflict, but we'll come into that later of how sometimes it is necessary as part of our growth. I'll argue and I apologize for that argument later. But when you haven't been taught or shown to be aware of where we're lacking in our communication skills, I think that's inevitably going to lead to more interesting conflict in our day-to-day lives. Because how can it not? Because we've never been taught to explore how that self-assessment when it comes to our communication skills?

Speaker 1: 6:05

Because we might be speaking the same language. We all think that the words that we're using have the same meaning, but they don't necessarily, and we've never been taught how to pay attention to each other's body language, which will tell you more about what somebody's actually trying to say than anything else and 90% of the time that's because we're so caught up in our own stuff that we're not paying attention to the other person's body language. We're only hearing the words, and so we're applying our meaning to the words somebody else is saying. We're not paying attention to what their body language is saying, and so, therefore, we have that complete miscommunication that happens and, depending on you know what it is, as Gareth would say, our contract has in line for us meaning.

Speaker 1: 6:53

What are some of those very first ways that we learn to communicate? You know, because we learn at a very young age from the people who are raising us how to communicate, and nobody has the same parents, so we're going to get different styles of communication all the time With all of that background. Of course it causes problems in the relationship. Of course we think we're being transparent. You know, I can tell you a story of a client that I had the very first session I was doing with this client. Client had complex. First session I was doing with this client. The client had complex trauma. I was aware of the client having complex trauma. I was doing an intake halfway through the interview with somebody and then.

Speaker 2: 7:34

Yet we are surprised when our mind does wander or when we're triggered in other ways. So you can see how communication suddenly covers every area of our lives. It can pull us in a million different directions, but how efficient or meaningful is it ever? And I think that's the tricky thing to begin to explore in any person.

Speaker 1: 7:56

I think what you're alluding to here is it comes back to how we communicate with ourselves, and a lot of people don't even know how to understand that communication. Now, for me, as a matter of survival, that is one of the things I had to start doing at a young age and early age. I say early age, I'm talking mid-20s, 30s, I'm not talking primary school, because too much is going on through that time in your life. But when I started becoming a young adult and my life wasn't viable the way I was living it, it became very important for me to. I already had the assumption that if it goes wrong, it must be my fault, and so, therefore, I wanted to examine what was it I was doing that wasn't effective in what I was trying to do, especially when it came to communicating.

Speaker 1: 8:47

Because I can tell you, gareth, part of my life contract is people not understanding me Hands down. I get that because it's been one of the things I've looked at for so long. Part of that comes to because I had to learn to be brutally honest with myself, sometimes too brutally honest with myself and over negative towards myself, but I really wanted to get it. I really wanted to understand and what my experience has been very few people do actually question their type of communication. What did they actually mean? What were they actually trying to say? I don't think any of us have been taught how to do that.

Speaker 2: 9:31

The communication breakdown that naturally comes around in life is a part of our contract and our experiences. That eventually turns us back to self in order to understand, as you were saying there, what am I doing? What's my part in this? I have to look into this that we go.

Speaker 2: 9:55

There's a reason why it's not taught to any of us, so you and I, of course, can pick a hold in most things and say this should be taught in schools and this should be taught and everyone should know about this.

Speaker 2: 10:00

But then you also have to question there's a reason why a lot of us are not allowed to know these things because of the experiences and the development that it has throughout our lives. And then that is part of the journey of going full circle and doing the journey of understanding self, because if we had all this information from the day we were born, it'd be a very boring life, meaning there wouldn't be much to explore or to go through and I'm not saying it's a picnic at any stage. You know life's tricky for most people, if not everyone in their own ways, but you can find reasoning to why it does need to be this way. But then it is that journey back into self, and it does often require a lot of fallout with individuals or the world before you actually ever realize that that's where you need to go, because it's not the first protocol, it is not taught to you, and sometimes it does bring you to that space in life where you've nowhere else to go but inwards, before you go outwards again.

Speaker 1: 10:55

It's so frustrating too, because we always want to make it about the other person and it's really not. If we're not happy with whatever the communication was, it's really about what's going on inside of us, you know, regardless of what that looks like, and if the other person isn't happy with us, it's not always about us, it's about what's going on for them. But we don't get to know that and I can tell you as someone who's done a lot of self-reflection and paid a lot of attention to this has it gotten easier in the communication styles? Professionally, yes. Personally, I don't think that's.

Speaker 1: 11:35

Oh, so we're being honest here I can be honest about that because obviously, like you said, we all have stuff to continue to learn. I mean, it gets annoying sometimes, I'm not gonna lie about that. It gets annoying because you think, okay, I'm finally getting a handle on this, and then bam, something else rears its ugly head and you're like, okay, here we go again. You know just what is it. It gets easier as you're learning to do it, but in the beginning it's completely baffling, and even for me and some of my personal relationships, when I've tried to speak to other people and I can see what they're hearing is not what I'm trying to say. So I want you to hear that I can see what they're hearing is not what I'm trying to say, and that is confusing in itself when you're trying to very sincerely have this conversation and it's just not going in.

Speaker 2: 12:37

But I think this is why it is such a confusing topic, because people are trying to get their point across. As you said earlier in the episode, people are trying to be liked. People are also trying to distract, people are trying to deflect. So we've learned a lot of ways in which we can utilize communication, but it's never really for ourselves anymore, and so, therefore, when you start layering in all the different ways in which you can think about communication, you can see how that can be overwhelming, especially at the start of this journey, because we're so used to it really just filling very specific day-to-day needs in our day-to-day societies and cultures. But when you start looking at it for yourself as an individual, I think that can be overwhelming to start wrapping your head around.

Speaker 1: 13:22

Well, especially if you're one of these people that have learned that outward focus and you're trying to mind read, so you're having, say, I'm having a conversation with you and I'm watching you and I'm thinking what is he thinking? Oh, now I. Oh, why did I say that? Because he raised his eyebrow and now, you know, he hates me, and blah, blah, blah, blah when it comes to this, you know. So, if people have that mind reading and that's usually a lot of people that suffer from anxiety it's so hard for them to pay attention to what's going on in them and what they're trying to communicate, because they're so busy trying to figure out what's going on in the other person's head. When it's impossible to do that, you know, you can only understand how it's received if the feedback comes back in a way that you expected it to, and if it didn't, it's not about necessarily you got it wrong, it's about where has the miscommunication happened?

Speaker 2: 14:21

And I think it's very hard at times to be able to develop that skill, especially if you're around people who are not that interested in developing that skill with you. We're in a world where someone has to be right and someone has to be wrong. Yeah, so boring. Did you notice that? Well, I have in the past, but I has to be wrong. Yeah, so boring. Did you notice that?

Speaker 1: 14:37

Well, I have in the past, but I've refused to accept it. I just hate the fact that everybody does that right, wrong thing. I hate it.

Speaker 2: 14:47

But it's automated.

Speaker 1: 14:48

I know it is. I know it is.

Speaker 2: 14:50

But if that's not the killer of all communication, I don't know what is. It's the counter to communication. Let's take a step back from this week's episode and share with everyone what we've been up to behind the scenes.

Speaker 1: 15:03

We're really excited to be able to finally offer the Gareth Michael community to each of you. The community offers a range of benefits, including access to our live events, weekly podcast episodes, articles, self-checking questions, as well as a community of individuals you can connect with and interact with along the way. It's designed to offer you support, guidance and a safe space on a day-to-day basis. We'd love to have you join our global community of like-minded individuals. That website address, again, is wwwgarethmichaelcom. Now let's get back to that episode, shall we?

Speaker 2: 15:45

So, in saying that, when there is such a focus of someone having to be right and someone having to be wrong, and someone needs to be leading the conversation or has to be the dominant one or you have to agree with what I'm saying how can you ever expect for communication to grow or expand, or for it to be a safe or vulnerable environment to actually say what's on your mind or even eventually to communicate what's actually going on within, within you on a deeper level?

Speaker 2: 16:11

Let that be a mind, body, emotions, past, present or future. So you can see how, when, especially in dynamics of a lot of friendships, relationships, family members, when the focus is so often on being right, wrong, liked, loved, you know, based off fear or trauma from the past, if there's not much wiggle room there to actually be able to open up and to maybe communicate in the way you would like, even if you know that's an option, whereas most people don't even know that there's other ways to communicate with others or internally with themselves I think it's a very confronting situation when that's the case, because we all want to communicate openly, but how many people actually have ever felt completely safe in doing that?

Speaker 1: 16:59

Not very many people, because of that very little wiggle room that you just spoke about. There's just not a lot of wiggle room and I think it's kind of frustrating on one level, but it is also. There's a lot of growth in the fact when you realize there's not a lot of room but you continue to pursue being able to be as open and honest as you can be in your communications, because somebody has to start, has to start somewhere. But more often than not you have to get past that stage of all the reactivity, because when we're trying to communicate honestly and if it's not being received in the way that we thought it would be, there's usually a lot of emotional reactivity that gets lit up and then it makes you want to shut down even more yeah yeah, and so how does one get past that?

Speaker 2: 17:52

it's a real question what I think the start of it is being able to realize the individuals in your life who want the communication to remain surface level, versus the people in your life who actually might be interested in for it to go a little bit deeper. Because we have the people in our lives who want to keep ticking the boxes, do not want to go into any of this reality of what's going on in each other's lives. Talk about the kids constantly. Talk about work, talk about the neighbors, talk about anything just about themselves, and that's okay. Talk about the weather, but and I know that's there's basic skills that most people need to have in order to get through day-to-day life. In. However, that gets very thin after a period of time, especially when stuff inside is starting to bubble up, when the seams in life start to split in different ways. So I think that's where starting to actually weigh up and when it's time to start opening up and communicate.

Speaker 2: 18:43

I always believe the right people do appear in front of us or become more present in our lives in their own ways. So, in understanding and navigating the individuals who actually seem open to hearing you and are actually asking more questions about how are you actually doing at times and giving you those opportunities, understanding who they are, versus the people who just want to continue ticking those surface level boxes. Is there anything wrong with those individuals in our lives? Absolutely not. But I think it's unfair on both individuals to expect more from the relationship when it's actually not capable of delivering more than what it is. So in understanding that, because if you start trying to open up, so to speak, with the individuals who are not ready to do that, as you were saying earlier, it can actually force us more inwards and it can knock our confidence. We don't want to be vulnerable anymore and those windows of actually having the courage to do that are often quite small as we go throughout life.

Speaker 1: 19:40

Well, the real trick is that discernment, you know, discerning who you can open up more with or who you are having those social levels and you know whether it's my ADHD, whether it's the dyslexia, whether it's the complex trauma, whether it's all of the above. I never got that early on, and so I remember in my 20s, people used to always tell me I overshared. Well, I didn't even understand what that meant. I was just trying to be open and honest and yeah, so it can be very confusing as you're going down this path, but the thing is is, like you said, instead of giving into that need to isolate or back off or not be so vulnerable, it is about learning that discernment of who is ready to meet you in that place, of learning to communicate and who isn't.

Speaker 2: 20:30

Yeah, yeah, and I think it's an even understanding. See, I don't necessarily agree with, say, when people cut people out of their lives, especially if you're in an, if you're in an area in your life or time in your life where you want to start opening up and someone else isn't ready to join you in that yet I like that saying I often use with people is that it doesn't mean it's not never, it's just not now, you know, because I think it's too easy to cut people out when the reality is it may not be time for them, but it's time for you now. And there are other people. It's most likely in our lives that we can prioritize for what our needs are in this moment in time. So everyone's on their own path, as I say, to cut them out when there are other people who often appear when the time is right for us to have the opportunity to open up and be vulnerable if it presents itself in the right moments.

Speaker 1: 21:25

Sometimes we don't have that choice, as you've said many times before, because of the emotional reaction that happens inside of us and we're unaware of why that emotional reaction is happening. You know, I just recently came across some learnings that I found very interesting and it was about our emotional embodiment of things prior to our language developing. And so if we're in an environment where we're always being shut down as very young children and we weren't allowed to talk when we first make those steps to try and get out there and talk, if it's not met in a way that we had hoped, the physical embodiment part of us, it's a natural shutdown or cut off or whatever, and it takes. I think sometimes it takes people a little while going through that before they understand. Wait, I didn't actually want to cut off or whatever, and it takes.

Speaker 1: 22:16

I think sometimes it takes people a little while going through that before they understand wait, I didn't actually want to cut off or shut off but something in my body is forcing that to happen, and I'm not saying that as an excuse at all because, it's a real thing that happens to people, but again, another area that we're not taught that you know, sensation was, as we've often talked about in the past, our very first language, and so that sensation will still show up. Even though we're using a lot of verbiage, the sensation still shows up in the body. And then it's about getting congruent with ourselves and the sensations in our body to be able to move forward.

Speaker 2: 22:57

But what I love about that is that that's the internal communication being worked on of actually what's going on with inside any of us and, as you mentioned in the start of this episode and previous episodes, that's our own studying, our own individual maps of the world and what's going on. So it's not only just about having space for what's going on in other people's lives, but if we are finding ourselves shutting ourselves down or it's not as easy to find those people, or struggling to open up, even if the intention is there or the logic is there. But that's another way in which we have to explore the communication that's going on within us internally, as well as why it's maybe harder than expected externally, externally. So our body, our mind, body, emotions and soul are always sending those signals in those different ways in which each of those departments, as I call them, is communicating with us in different ways, or why we're struggling to communicate in those different ways. But that is where the growth is great just you know I have time.

Speaker 1: 23:53

Excuse my friend, that's my honest reaction.

Speaker 2: 23:58

Great, but I mean that's a lifetime.

Speaker 1: 24:00

All the blood just drained from kim's face it's like, oh okay, who knew communication could be so complicated?

Speaker 2: 24:10

us entering this conversation.

Speaker 1: 24:16

Oh true, very true, yes, so that is a lot for somebody to navigate. So where would you suggest?

Speaker 2: 24:23

It's a lot for us to navigate.

Speaker 1: 24:25

It is a lot for us to navigate, and I think that's important to say too, gareth, because I love communication and I am the first person to admit that I struggle with communication a lot. I don't have a problem saying that Get me in a session where I'm one-on-one with someone I can communicate very effectively, let my emotions or my body come into it, and there's a whole different story that happens. And there's a whole different story that happens, and I've given up seeking that perfection and I've started just looking for more progress and understanding of myself and why that's happening, instead of thinking I might as well just kick the bucket because I can't do it, because that was the response for a very long time. So it's about you know, learning how to come back to ourselves and really have a feedback loop for ourself. As to what happened for me in that situation, I can share an example of this very thing that just happened to me.

Speaker 1: 25:35

Recently, I was having a conversation with a very dear friend of mine and that person said something to me about what I had said which I was like wait a minute, are you on Mars and I'm on Venus? Because that was not anywhere close to what I was trying to say, and, in hindsight, as I sat back and reflected, I went, I went. Okay, I can see where this person has jumped to this conclusion, but that is not what I was trying to say, and so how do I help them get beyond the surface stuff and see what I was trying to say underneath that? Because it wasn't about the people in the conversation, it was about what was happening for me in being misunderstood. Does that make sense, and so. But that took a lot of self-reflection to sit back and go. Where did that go so wrong when it felt like it was going to be such a simple conversation?

Speaker 1: 26:35

So when I went back and explained it and left the surface stuff completely out and spoke from that, I feel place. I did see my friend's eyes glaze over, and so that's when I realized okay, so they're not ready to hear that, they can't hear that from me I. I, however, know what I was trying to say, which is more important than anything, because I hadn't known that before. I wasn't aware of what I had been trying to say before. I was just saying it, hoping it would be understood. But when I had that time to stop, go back, reflect and go. Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait. No, that's not it. It was this underneath. Now that I know that, do I have a huge need to have someone else understand it? No, because I understand it.

Speaker 2: 27:24

Yep, and I think even before we started this conversation for this episode.

Speaker 2: 27:29

I laugh sometimes when we come on to record because we have an idea of what we're going to talk about.

Speaker 2: 27:34

It's not often the plan, and when you have a topic like this of a communication, it's only when you and I get into it that we realize how much we're going to bounce around. We're like, oh wow, I'm going to cover a lot of random things and jump around quite a bit. But I think that can be a good thing because it shows the complexity or how layered it is in all of our lives and more often than not we've never had the ability or the chance to take a step back and actually see how important communication is or, in this example, how communication is so important, but how many layers and how deep it runs in all of us in so many different ways, both internally and externally. So I do think it's important we talk about some tools and techniques that maybe any of us can apply or work on or become more aware of to have better conversations and better communication with ourselves and the people around us. So what comes to mind for you?

Speaker 1: 28:27

I think the very first thing that comes to mind when I enter a conversation with someone is trying to keep at the forefront of my mind to be curious. I want to be curious about what this person is trying to express to me, because the more I'm curious about it, the more present I'm going to be, and that's naturally going to tick that box of really wanting to listen, to understand, instead of listen to respond, which is one of those old sayings, but it's an important saying. So that would be the first thing that I would say. And then it's about checking in. This is what I think you said. Is that what you meant by that? Do you know what I mean? When you check in with somebody and you go okay, this is what I think I heard, am I right? Then that gives that person the opportunity to go oh no, that's not what I was trying to say, and then that feedback loop allows you guys to have a deeper understanding. That's what I would say.

Speaker 2: 29:28

A lot of the topics that we talk about. This is another skill set that all of us have to invest in our work on in some ways, and in order to do that, we need to have a safe environment that you know I know I mentioned earlier about the people in our lives might present themselves in order to allow us to start opening up or being vulnerable, but sometimes that is in the form of a qualified therapist or a qualified coach or actually someone who we want to engage with. That we know exactly is going to be a safe environment for us to explore conversations or emotions or experiences that we've never had the opportunity to but we know we can, in a safe environment, to start building those skill sets at its core or just feeling comfortable with opening up in that way, mind-body emotions and, I think, outside of that and just day-to-day conversations with family and friends. I often tell myself that say, if I'm present in a conversation, as you were saying, that I have to remind myself that there isn't a right and a wrong there.

Speaker 2: 30:16

Say, if I'm present in a conversation, as you were saying, that I have to remind myself that there isn't a right and a wrong. There's what I'm saying. There's saying it's even reminding myself I'm not ending this conversation to have to be liked or to be loved or to be. That all starts with me. So I just think as you start to explore yourself and learn those skill sets, you do have those little reminders that you have to kind of tell yourself before you enter sometimes these conversations. To be present, as you were saying earlier, to take in every single word, to be curious, to actually find ways to be excited about the conversations, to keep ourselves present. But they're all skills we haven't been taught. Yeah, we've often utilized other people to avoid ourselves, and that's huge, that a lot of us don't realize what we do.

Speaker 1: 31:06

And I think, one of the other key things if you're learning to do this and you find yourself having that emotional reactivity, that's a great time to take a pause in the conversation, because what most people don't understand is the whole reason that people end up yelling at each other is because they don't feel heard or understood, and so they get louder and louder because they're wanting to be heard or understood.

Speaker 1: 31:26

So if there's an emotional reaction, it's a good time to take a little bit of a time out, just breathe, come back what happened inside of me, let them work out what's happening inside of them, reminding yourself, like you just said, there doesn't have to be a right or wrong here. This is someone expressing what's going on for them and then monitoring what your own expectations of the conversation are. Are you having the conversation to be liked? Are you having the conversation to be right? Are you having the conversation because you want to understand or because you want to be liked? Are you having the conversation to be right? Are you having the conversation because you want to understand or because you want to be understood?

Speaker 2: 32:02

I'd like to set a challenge for our listeners that for the next person that they're speaking with, for them to be self-aware of the ways in which they're being present. Not being present Does their mind wander, as we've been talking about. Are we focusing on being liked, being right, being wrong Are? Are we triggered I just think, even in challenging yourself to do it once this week to be hyper focused in on what's going on within you as you're engaging with another person. You might be surprised in what it brings up I think that'll be a great challenge.

Speaker 1: 32:36

Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, then you might want to check out our online community. We built it to offer you the comfort of having a supportive community by your side, no matter where life takes you Connect with like-minded individuals through our app. Navigate each step of the journey together with us by joining our Gareth Michael community. Here are a few of the things you're going to get. You'll get exclusive real-time access to live recording and events. Advanced access to each new episode. The opportunity to ask questions directly of Gareth and I Input into what topics we cover in the show. Access to exclusive content not available anywhere else. To learn more about our community, please go to wwwgarethmichaelcom. Thanks again, and I hope you guys are having a lovely week.