Speaker 2: 0:12

Welcome back to the Practical Spirituality Podcast. We are so excited to have you on this journey with us, where we explore all elements of mind, body, emotions and soul through the lens of everyday life.

Speaker 3: 0:28

Hello Kim.

Speaker 2: 0:29

Hello Gareth.

Speaker 3: 0:30

How are you doing this morning?

Speaker 2: 0:32

I'm okay.

Speaker 3: 0:33

Busy week.

Speaker 2: 0:34

Been a very busy week and I had late night last night, so yeah, Good combination. Yes, very good combination.

Speaker 1: 0:44

Well.

Speaker 3: 0:44

I think this is going to be another interesting episode for this week. I actually had a question from a client not that long ago and then I thought it'd be a very good, interesting topic for the podcast. For this week's episode, we're going to be talking about hope and why do we need it in life.

Speaker 2: 1:00

Hope, and why do we need it? So that we don't exit early?

Speaker 1: 1:08

you're familiar with that one once again.

Speaker 3: 1:12

I think there's been a theme in this season where we're talking about topics or things in our day-to-day lives that we all go through, but we've never had the opportunity or chance to take a step back and actually question our individual view on these things that we all go through and why it is that way and how it does impact us all present day. And I think it's only when we get the chance to question it, reflect on it or hear someone else's version of it that it makes us explore our own a little bit more, and I think that can be very healthy. Explore our own a little bit more, and I think that can be very healthy. And so for this week, I think exploring hope and how that changes of when we have it and then we all know when we don't have it. And I think, depending on what area of our lives we look back on, you can see how that fluctuates quite a bit and how it influences even our decision-making and our relationship with other people, with ourselves and with our relationship with mind, body, emotions.

Speaker 2: 2:08

And so it covers a lot of ground. That's my point. That's a lot of ground, yeah.

Speaker 3: 2:13

So I think to dive into it. If you were to ask me my relationship with hope or when I became aware of what that meant for me, I would say is that when I was in a really down place in my life, right before I met Michael, and so what we'd often talk about in even season one, what I would define was a spiritual awakening for me, which to me is an understanding of myself, which then led to meeting Michael. That was part of my journey. But if I was to look back of that combination of that formula that happened to me because I didn't have any hope left, so to speak. I was actually at rock bottom and something needed to change. So prior to that, I never really questioned hope or what that meant.

Speaker 3: 2:58

And of course, everyone hopes that certain things in life are going to fall into place and that things are going to resolve themselves, or hope that the sun's going to come out, and you can apply it to so many different areas of where we might condition elements of life. But I think when it hits you in mind, body, emotions and when you lose hope and any of us hit rock bottom, it is a start of a new chapter of some kind that really can reset any of us as we go through life and changes our direction of where we thought it was going to go versus how it actually where it ends up bringing us. So, for me, what comes to mind when I was even thinking about hope was that I didn't have a lot of hope at that particular time in my life, and when I met Michael, it really changed my understanding of my relationship with hope meaning suddenly, as I had access to Michael, I was able to understand why I lost all the hope that I had up until that point. So what I mean by that and this is where I think you're definitely going to jump in is that if you actually start to question the events of what bring us to that space of where we lose hope, you could argue a question that, when we don't understand the events that we've been through, that space of where we lose hope, you could argue a question that when we don't understand the events that we've been through in this life, if we're running a lot of trauma for not good communicators never been taught how to communicate, our mind is full, our emotions are heavy and we're still expected to go through life and push on as if nothing's happened.

Speaker 3: 4:20

You can see how it's very hard to have hope in this life when our logical mind doesn't understand a lot of these events and we're not able to process emotions. And if there's things going on, physically it can weigh you down. So it's only when I have access to Michael and this is only my journey, of course in that moment where I was actually able to start piecing all of these different events together and my logical mind was able to get an understanding and I was able to start processing my emotions, that my hope in this life for me started to be restored. So that's where my relationship with that. If I look back all those years ago, that was a starting point of a very different chapter with hope within myself.

Speaker 2: 4:58

Interesting, very interesting Listening to it and I'm thinking the very first thing. If I'm being very honest, what comes to mind is did I just miss the boat or what's the problem here? Because I've had several of those events, as you know where.

Speaker 2: 5:17

I've reached that rock bottom, I think, for me. I go. I had a whole lot more hope when I was younger, after those rock bottom events and I guess, as you said, because I didn't understand the events that were was going on or why they needed to happen, is one of the reasons I kept being brought, you know for lack of a better way of saying it to my knees, um, and I think that's. It feels like that's kind of a harsh thing to have to go through just to get hope. But you know, in hindsight, as I sit here and think about it, I go, no matter how many times those events had to happen.

Speaker 2: 5:57

One of the key things that comes out of it is I look at the world in a completely different way than most people do you. You know, like I was saying, I had a late night. Last night I went to listen to somebody, I went to listen to an author, and you know it's a weird feeling when you go to listen to an author and there's just nothing new in it for you, because you've already explored every aspect of what they're talking about. And so, from that point of view, I go. Yep, I can see why hope is necessary. I can see why people need to go through what they go through. I just don't particularly understand why does it have to get to be the place of rock bottom and why does it have to be rock bottom so many times before we feel that sense of hope? Does that make sense?

Speaker 3: 6:41

It does make sense and I think there's different. Like anything we talk about, there's a scale of one to 10 on what we're brought on of that journey of one being I have no hope and 10 being I have lots of hope and there's a different scale on that depending on what we're going through. And I think when certain parts of us are triggered going throughout life, or we don't want to have to do certain things or we want to bury our head in the sand, then you can see how life continues to take away hope more and more until we start addressing things that we often don't know how to address, as we both have talked about. Often it's not our individual fault, but we can all get very creative in how we like to hide on a subconscious level, and I think it's that when you take away hope, when we hit that rock bottom, it does force us to have to start questioning things in order to receive that growth.

Speaker 2: 7:31

I remember living in my little naive bubble. I do remember that, you know and while there was a lot of bad things that were happening to me at the time and I was completely oblivious to it, I felt like I had more hope. Then I mean, I'm not and I know I'm sounding a bit negative here it's not that I don't have hope. Like, I look at hope in a completely different way now than how.

Speaker 2: 7:49

I did for so many years of my life, and so we're talking about it causes me to reflect back and I go yeah, I kind of miss that little bubble where the world was my oyster and anything could happen.

Speaker 3: 8:02

But, I think that's what's interesting about this conversation, because it is a universal experience, because we all had that naivety, we all had that hope and it all got taken away from us, and that's exactly what we're talking about.

Speaker 2: 8:17

So we should really call it why hope gets ripped away so you can find it again that what you're saying yeah, it feels like I keep putting it down and I can't.

Speaker 1: 8:26

I can't remember where I put it. I know it's in this room, somewhere hope is present, but I just can't put my hand on it right now that's funny.

Speaker 3: 8:36

Yes, okay, now I understand but I think when you're on the journey and, as you said, and you have studied yourself in so many ways and continue to and read so much material it's that you begin to realize that when those emotional signals are either strong or minimal or taken away.

Speaker 3: 8:58

it's to do with growth or questioning that has to be done about your journey and yourself and I know that's been the theme of this podcast we're doing together is that, no matter what happens in life, it always brings you back to self and for something to explore that is unique to you. So this is why, when it comes to hope, there's similarities in all of our lives and when it's there and when it's, so to speak, taken away. But I think, is that we never really questioned it enough to go okay, what role is this playing in my life currently? Where is it on that scale in my life, and what is that trying to teach me or show me, or what's even my conditioning with it at times? So that's why I just thought it was a very interesting conversation for us to have.

Speaker 2: 9:42

Well, it is an interesting conversation because I think once people Well, it is an interesting conversation because I think once people feel hope they definitely don't go in and question it. No, they just go. Oh, okay, so maybe it's going to get better.

Speaker 1: 9:56

Same with all the positive emotions. Why would you question it when you're feeling it?

Speaker 2: 10:00

Right, exactly, exactly. So I just think it's such an interesting thing because if I were to be honest with you and look back on all of the times that that has happened to me, because there's been many, and I think that's what's an important point to make, as much as it sounds like a broken record.

Speaker 2: 10:20

I think there are going to be many times in life where it feels like hope is taken away. But it's not that it's taken away. It's that we lose hope because of whatever we're dealing with at the time, whatever story we're telling ourselves, whatever place we're stuck, and so many times. For me, like you said about when Michael appeared in your life, hope has always represented, if I look at it in hindsight, as uh okay, you've dwelt in your shit long enough, it's time to get yeah, right it's like a little nudge.

Speaker 2: 10:54

Okay, you know you've been sitting in this for a while now. You know you've, you've examined it to death in my book is what I would say. You know, because when things aren't going well and you're in it, it feels so deep and it feels so dark and it feels like it's never going to end. Like and I'm not saying that's the same every time you lose hope, but for a lot of times for me, when I got to that rock bottom place that you were talking about, you know, anybody that's experienced that knows that feeling. And when you're in it, you don't realize how deeply you're in it until you get that spark of hope. And you get that spark of hope and you go, oh okay, maybe, maybe, and it is almost like a perspective shift in that moment. I'm not sure how many people take long enough to examine what happens at that crisis point, where they're at crisis and then hope enters.

Speaker 3: 11:53

I think, even looking back on my life, as you've discussed many times in this podcast about your life we don't know what we don't know, and it's not only that none of us have been given the opportunity to explore it, but for me at that time, when I had Michael come into my life and he had given me these different understandings that we've talked about in this podcast many times about there is answers and reasons out there and you just have to go out there and explore it and be willing to go there. But there is a reason behind it that gives me a lot of hope and it instantly gives me relief of okay, I'm just not going to be expected to carry this weight around for the rest of my life and continue adding to it, or that is always going to be a mystery in life of why these things occurred. For me, it was like that restored a lot of hope within myself. But it's that, if we look at it, that there's eight billion people on the planet and there's been a lot of people that have come here before us and there's only a finite amount of human experiences, so to speak.

Speaker 3: 12:58

Yes, each are unique to each individual, but it's that we've just never been given the resources, or even none of us, a lot of us didn't even know it was possible to go explore, to release a lot of these elements of us. So suddenly, when you could argue, some of these most basic things were starting to be explained to me with the actual answers that made those aha moments click in my head or release those emotions. It restored a lot of hope. But for a, a lot of individuals they're not given that opportunity to even know that restoring hope is even an option, because life is so heavy and they only are trying to get through the day or those little moments during a given day that bring them happiness, maybe seeing their kids interacting with people they love. You know there is moments during a given day, but for the most part, as you and I both remember, when there's that weight of the world on top of you, it's very hard to bring your head above the water.

Speaker 3: 13:53

Yeah it is, do you?

Speaker 2: 13:54

know that feeling I'm talking about.

Speaker 1: 13:55

Yeah, I'm a little bit familiar with that.

Speaker 2: 13:58

I'm a little bit familiar with that feeling and so I was listening to you talk and I go yeah, but again, like my yeah, but again.

Speaker 2: 14:07

You had this experience at a relatively young age and it was a massive experience where most of us don't get to go and have that, and so we get that little bit of help and then we chug into the next gear and get going again.

Speaker 2: 14:20

We, you know, chug into the next gear and get going again, and whether we've explored it or not, it definitely is a relief to get out of that place and crisis. I think, had I known that it was going to be ripped away again and again and again and again, I don't know if I would have relied on it so much because I wasn't given that meaning and so many people aren't given the meaning as to why it has to happen. So in that case, you know as it's, as you hit a rock bottom, say, for the third or the fourth time or however many times somebody hits a rock bottom, I guess the real question is, Like you said, as soon as hope appears, you certainly aren't going to hang around and try and explore it, Because you're just so relieved that something has shifted. And I guess the other thing is how do we find that hope when we're at that rock bottom? I mean, I think that's a big question for a lot of people think that's a big question for a lot of people.

Speaker 3: 15:27

When we hit that rock bottom, a lot of decisions are actually made for us in the areas that I want to say. It causes us to have to break open in ways in which we didn't know we were capable of. And I think, depending on which rock bottom you hit, each rock bottom is quite different.

Speaker 2: 15:39

But it forced us open. Listen, I'm really sorry listeners, we have to talk about it like this because Listen, I'm really sorry listeners, we have to talk about it like this because, you know, if I had been listening to this podcast in my 20s and heard that I was going to have multiple rock bottoms, I'd go these two are nuts. There's a rock bottom and then there's a deeper rock bottom and then there is a basement. But it just depends on different people. I know lots of people who haven't had to hit as many rock bottoms as me, and so that is one of the reasons why I used to say maybe I was on the slow bus or I had to bang my head against the wall. Yeah, I think that's because there was a lot of fight in me and not a lot of people have that same sort of experience.

Speaker 3: 16:23

This is what I want to add to what you just said there. People have that same sort of experience. This is what I want to add to what you just said there. It's that it's because of a lot of the conditioning we've all been brought up in very different ways that if I often say if we had been taught this from day dot, that we were going to hit 400 rock bottoms in this lifetime, it wouldn't be a nice experience, but it wouldn't be such a mental, emotional fight every time we're there because it feels like we're doing something wrong or this shouldn't be happening, or you know, it's that fight that you just mentioned there that makes the experience a hundred times harder and that's what actually makes it harder to actually understand the meaning to go get help, to get the recovery. But, as you said, there's so many years where we spend banging our head against the wall, but that doesn't mean that we're getting help while we're banging our head against the wall.

Speaker 1: 17:06

We're just hoping it's like anything.

Speaker 3: 17:09

We avoid going to the doctor at times because you just hope it gets better itself, or you're just hoping that sometimes the problem goes away. But in this life, when it comes to certain experiences that have individual interest and awakenings for any of us in mind body emotions so they don't go away Rock bottom keeps appearing in its own way for us to be able to grow and to get the message. Does that mean that we enjoy it or that we want it to happen? But I think part of the point of this conversation is that whether we want it to be that way or not doesn't stop it from actually occurring that way. But for every time we have hit rock bottom, it has given us a new understanding of ourselves, and I know that's what you're saying also. It's hard to argue otherwise.

Speaker 2: 17:52

It's really hard to argue otherwise, you know, because what is the alternative? Denial. And so you know, I wish, and I can say this with all honesty I wish there were times in my life I could have stayed in denial.

Speaker 1: 18:06

And.

Speaker 2: 18:07

Lord knows. I have tried many times.

Speaker 1: 18:11

Michael can confirm.

Speaker 2: 18:18

But having said that, you know there are a lot of people that do, like myself, confuse denial with hope. I just I don't want to look at this. It's too, you know, it's in the too hard basket and so I'm just going to pretend it's not happening and move on with life. And you know, this goes also to show the complexity of my thinking at times, show the complexity of my thinking at times. I just don't know if I thought, oh, I'm just going to ignore it and it'll go away. I don't think I ever thought that.

Speaker 2: 18:52

I think what I thought for so many times was well, nobody else seems to have this problem. So maybe if I just do what they're doing, then I won't have this problem anymore. Maybe this is a me problem, not just necessarily a life problem. And so that was my thinking a lot of the times until I couldn't deny it anymore. And that is a hard thing for a lot of people, because the way that we're brought up, some of the things that we're taught, some of the impressions that we were given at a very young age, we think life is supposed to be a certain way and then when life happens and it's not that way, that's a big adjustment in itself. The common joke we hear all the time. You hear all these kids that are 11, 12, 13 going into their teenage years and they just want to be an adult.

Speaker 1: 19:50

They get to be an adult.

Speaker 2: 19:53

They're like oh, this adulting thing, yeah, highly overrated, and that's a prime example of it. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 3: 20:04

Let's take a step back from this week's episode and share with everyone what we've been up to behind the scenes.

Speaker 2: 20:09

We're really excited to be able to finally offer the Gareth Michael community to each of you. The community offers a range of benefits, including access to our live events, weekly podcast episodes, articles, self-checking questions, as well as a community of individuals you can connect with and interact with along the way. It's designed to offer you support, guidance and a safe space on a day-to-day basis. We'd love to have you join our global community of like-minded individuals. That website address, again, is wwwgarethmichaelcom. Now let's get back to that episode, shall we?

Speaker 3: 20:51

As we go through life, the experiences that we go through continue to redefine a lot of these things that we had in our childhood, our understandings, because how can it not? It not? But I think it's that what gives you hope when you were 15 or 16 versus what gives you hope 40, 50 years later. It's completely different, both correct for where you were at that time in your life with the understandings that you had. But it takes a lot, and to go through a lot, for that adjustment to occur, as you're saying.

Speaker 2: 21:19

That is very, very true, and so I think when we talk about that, then that's not to discount any of the versions of hope that we felt. You know, you brought up this topic earlier and the first image that showed up in my mind was me being in Seattle. I think I was what 18, if I was 18. And I remember walking down the street and feeling like I could do anything. I could do anything that I chose to do. And when I look back on that now it's like wow, okay, that's a naivety for you. I mean, I could do anything. I just didn't know what life had in store for me. But when I think of that image, that was probably one of the most carefree moments in my life, because I truthfully believed I could do anything.

Speaker 2: 22:18

Do I still believe that today? I do believe I have the capability to do anything. Whether that's going to pan out or not is a completely different story. Does that make sense? So I haven't lost that belief. But now I know that I have to go through certain experiences, that I have to go through. Certain experiences are going to be happening to me, for me to learn and grow, and it's like I also had someone tell me when I was. I probably was about 27 when someone said to me oh, you're going to be a teacher. Honestly, that concept was so foreign to me at the time I spit my tea out, laughing. I was like that's a real good joke. You're like. That was never in my consciousness, and so if you had told me I'd be sitting here doing what I'm doing today, it just wouldn't.

Speaker 3: 23:12

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:13

And so that is why we have to hit the, because I really want to give reason to why we have to hit the rock bottom, because it's starting to sound a bit.

Speaker 1: 23:21

You know I'm going to have to hit that many of them, yeah depressive.

Speaker 2: 23:28

But I truthfully wouldn't believe it. And I remember when this woman told me this all those years ago and I just I used to laugh about it at social events sometimes because I was like it's such a joke.

Speaker 3: 23:41

And now I sit here and go, oh okay, maybe it wasn't such a joke and now I sit here and go oh okay, maybe it wasn't such a joke, you know, because I do agree with what you're saying of why we have to elaborate a little more on why hitting rock bottom is important, because, as we were talking about briefly a few minutes ago, it's the fact that we weren't taught that this is a part of the reality of life is why we fight it so much, or why it is depressive, because that naivety from such a young age, or even if we were exposed to people who had hit rock bottom a lot of times throughout life, when you're so young and naive, what runs through your mind is that for me, it's going to be different, life's going to be different, and it is in a lot of ways.

Speaker 1: 24:18

But when it comes to these little rock bottoms we're talking about, they're present.

Speaker 3: 24:24

So when we're talking about rock bottom, it's like what that teacher philosopher said, rumi the wound is the place where the light enters you, and I think it's a very simplistic quote that I'm sure everyone has heard before. But I think sometimes when you hit rock bottom, it causes cracks in a lot of the foundations that have already been there that we didn't want't want to take ownership of. That, as you mentioned, we could be in denial about. But it's that. That is, the foundations that we have to repair and to understand. That allows us to grow and to dissolve and let go of a lot of things that we didn't even know was physically, humanly possible. So I think it's that some we both know that hitting rock bottom is not often a choice, because if it's a choice all of us wouldn't hit us.

Speaker 3: 25:09

It's kind of the point, very true, life is often making these decisions for us and when that happens, that's where it's time for a new chapter of some kind or all the lessons and learnings from that part of our lives coming to a close. So it doesn't mean that we're ever going to be excited about that or going to enjoy the process, but it happens with or without our permission and strangely, after all these years and working with a lot of people and looking at my own life as time goes on, it gives me more and more comfort. I have a level of acceptance with that now that I didn't have all those years ago, but that's because of exposure and that lovely word you love so much acceptance that life is going to present that Because, if you look at the facts, it has always done that.

Speaker 2: 26:01

Well, I think, one of the other things that gets confusing. I agree, I completely agree, I completely agree. And again, maybe I had to hit all the rock bottoms because I just wouldn't get to that place of acceptance. I was just like, no, I'm not going to accept that. Because I didn't want, I think, if I'm very honest, I didn't want the picture of the world that I wanted to hold, picture of the world that I wanted to hold, that I felt like I needed to hold, to be shattered. And I think that was important for me and it's not as important for other people, because a lot of people don't mind the world being shattered and building a new one, and that's fine. But because of my background and some of the things that had happened to me, my background and some of the things that had happened to me, I was holding onto this, you know, idea of the world.

Speaker 2: 26:52

That was my own version of hope, if I'm being really realistic about it, and I just wasn't willing to let go of that for the reality of what life was. And I and I'm not saying that life, you know, sounds very cynical, but I'm not saying that, I'm just know sounds very cynical, but I'm not saying that, I'm just saying my idea of life was so far from reality and I had picked up on something and held on to it for a long time. So I think, if I get really honest, you know, when you're trying to balance that idea of hope and the rock bottoms and you've got the two of them there how do you find that balance of, you know, between, say, the hope and and being over optimistic or being completely despondent because of the rock bottoms? And I think one of the key things, if I look back on life, I go which no one taught us either. I always had thought when I get to a certain point, when I get to a certain point of awareness, when I get to a certain point of maturity, when I get to a certain point of my career, when I get to a certain point of life, I'm going to have this understanding, and so then I'm going to glide, that life is just going to glide.

Speaker 2: 28:09

No one taught me that I needed to turn around and find out why I didn't feel like that now, in each moment, like that thing that I wanted to get to. No one taught me that I could have it here If I would just stop and start to explore myself and explore what and again, different levels of it at different stages of your life, but it's still nonetheless. No one ever says, you know what? One of the things you want to start looking at if you're hitting a few rock bottoms is what is it about what you want to be, feel, not do, but be and feel that you're not having right now. And how can you explore that mind, body and soul in a different way and emotions in a different way?

Speaker 2: 29:01

I can't believe I left out emotions, because it's the number one reason we don't have it, because we're running away from those emotions. But you hear what I'm trying to say. I'm trying to say, had I known that, that the ideal that I was searching for outside of myself was really supposed to be, let me go find that inside of myself first. That would have probably balanced out a few of those rock bottoms a little bit more. Maybe, maybe not, who knows. I've lived the experience I have, but I don't think if we could just learn at a younger age which I think so many people are today that let's go inward, let's ask what it is that I think is missing.

Speaker 3: 29:43

If we're looking at the concept of spiritual contracts in some ways, there's so many of those years where, when we had that naivety, when we had that hope because I don't even want to call it false hope, because it wasn't false back then, it was real we had a naivety and hope for the world that things were going to be different.

Speaker 3: 29:57

So, when we go through life and we have that naivety and we have that naivety, we have hope, and hope is taken away and we hit those rock bottoms and we come bouncing back. They all morph us into the people that we need to be throughout this life, depending on the experiences we're meant to have and I think this is why it goes back to certain the concept of spiritual contracts things unfold exactly as they're meant to and we explore them as we're allowed to and as we're meant to, because we go through these experiences and after a certain point, if it's a part of our journey, then we start unpacking all of that to understand self. Because if we have had so many of these experiences that have been traumatic or negative, I guarantee you, in some way life's going to keep bringing us those breaking points because it's going to say to us maybe it's time to start exploring this, maybe it's time to start asking why, in present day, as you were saying, and we can only be in denial or avoid that reality for so long, but that's why the breaking points are necessary. So it's only when you brought to so many of them and sometimes you're brought kicking and screaming, as you could often say, two different individuals, to start exploring it, that you can start to build that whole different foundation and relationship with self and start understanding the conditioning that we've put on life, or why we view the world the way we do or why we fight the things that we fight.

Speaker 3: 31:12

It's not saying any that is right or wrong as we often talk about. It's just that's too simplistic to view it that way, because it's not saying anything we went through is wrong. It's the thing. It's just currently misunderstood present day of why it needed to be that way. But that's why we have to have that compassion for ourselves and that willingness to not judge and to understand. Okay, if I'm hitting this rock bottom, there is a reason and purpose behind it today to take me in the direction I need to go to, from moving forward. But of course it's that at the start of the journey we keep hitting these rock bottoms. Is it that easy to accept that?

Speaker 3: 31:47

No, Kim younger Kim would have turned this podcast off long ago.

Speaker 2: 31:55

I'd have been sound asleep, sound asleep. And the reason for that is is because I really, you know, I really didn't want to believe that life was going to be a life full of challenges. But I didn't understand. The challenges are what make you grow. You know, like, I went to this event last night and I was listening to this person and he's actually almost 82 years of age and I was quite shocked because I didn't realize that's how old this person was. And he made a comment about where he said he started his first book at 55. And the reason that that had happened is because and I love the way he said it because I had to go through so much to get to a point before I started to really look at me to understand why these things were happening. And you know, in that moment what did I feel? Three guesses, oh, okay, I haven't totally lost the opportunity yet. A little bit of hope there. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1: 33:03

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 33:05

And I found that interesting, especially since we're talking about this today, because so many times life tells us if you haven't done something by X, that's it, it's over with. And so people lose that hope because they buy into the story. But, just like I was saying before, I had the ideal of what life was supposed to be, and so does everybody else, and that changes, and it's okay to have it, because it's only through having that and then looking at it with the challenges that are brought up that we do grow.

Speaker 3: 33:41

You were saying I think there's so many of those sayings throughout life that we've all heard is that when the student is ready, the teacher appears. It's like, yeah, normally the teacher appears when you've hit rock bottom and you actually need a teacher, and then a certain book gets placed into your hand or a certain thing gets advertised, you get a poll towards or you. I think there's so many examples of when we've been in those situations and life presents us with options that weren't there before and that we wouldn't have been ready to look at, wouldn't have been ready to actually get involved in or to say yes to. So it's easy to say that, looking back, oh, it seems so obvious. Or in hindsight, et cetera, et cetera. But I'm saying, even for Tim and I sitting here now, is there most likely a few rock bottoms ahead for both of us?

Speaker 1: 34:31

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:35

Oh yeah.

Speaker 3: 34:36

Oh yeah, and I'm saying it helps when we have this awareness now, and that's what we were talking about earlier. I wish we all had this awareness since we were four. It would make it a little bit easier. It doesn't mean to make it more enjoyable two very different things. But I'm saying we now have an understanding of how to approach rock bottom and to question it and our supports, and that makes a huge difference, that we're not fighting it as much. But do we enjoy it?

Speaker 2: 35:04

no, if there are people out there that can't seem to find the hope because it feels like the rock bottom never disappears. I think one of the things you know. Of course we want to remind everybody it's very important to get professional help but Yep.

Speaker 2: 35:23

But I think one of the main things to remember is I never saw hope coming when I was deep in it, you know it was usually when I got to a point. A certain point hope appeared. And, like you said, hope is that crack of light in the wound. And at that point where light enters and I agree with that so wholeheartedly because it's like it feels like you're banging your head against the wall. It feels like you're never going to get out of it. It feels like you've been here forever.

Speaker 2: 35:53

And then, for whatever reason, when that hope enters, you're like oh, oh, wait, oh okay, and I'm sure lots of people have had that experience and not really understood. That's the moment that hope started to appear and the light did come in and you can see things a little bit differently. There's a shift in that perception of what was actually happening. But not to lose hope if you've been going through a rock bottom is my point, because the hope will appear. But not to lose hope if you've been going through a rock bottom is my point, because the hope will appear.

Speaker 3: 36:26

But it's important, as you're saying, logically, understand why it's not there at this time in your life, when we lose all hope or we feel that we've hit a rock bottom. That's the energy, or your energy or life's way of saying to you you've outgrown this part of your life and now it's time to go explore in a logical way and to receive that help from a professional that you can trust. So it's like you know, you're not still wearing the same clothes you did when you were 12 or 14. I'm saying you outgrew that, you went to the shops and bought new clothes. You, you knew you were growing, you changed.

Speaker 3: 36:57

But, as we talked about, if we don't know that the shops exist and different size clothes exists and that we can grow and change in that way, of course it's going to be a longer journey, we're going to beat ourselves up and we're not going to have the compassion, and so there's so much about this, logically, that I wish we all had been taught that when we're hitting that rock bottom of what it even logically represents and the journey, we have to go on through it emotionally and physically and spiritually with others, with support, with people that we trust, and I think that's what makes the rock bottoms you and I go through moving forward very different to the to the ones 20 years ago absolutely, and I think the thing that you left out in there is we are not being punished, we are so not well well, you know, life could be the punishment, but I mean.

Speaker 1: 37:46

Let that go.

Speaker 2: 37:48

Acceptance. You know what I'm trying to say. A lot of people believe when they hit these rough spots, or rock bottoms, or whatever it appears for each person. You know I have quite a few people say to me you know, am I being punished for the sins of my past? I'm like, well, no, that's not how it works. You know, and I think that is a concept that is important to remember when you're going through this it is not a punishment.

Speaker 2: 38:17

If you could look at it like you said, I'm hitting a growth spurt. I've outgrown the dynamics of where I'm at, and all growth is painful. That's why kids have growing pains. So if you can just shift that perspective from punishment to a growth spurt, then you're going to look at it completely differently. It's an important point to be making.

Speaker 2: 38:40

I think so, even though you're the one that has said it so many times and I've laughed and giggled I do think one of the things we want to keep in mind is there is an acceptance, when it comes to all of these things, that not one is better than the other. The rock bottom isn't worse than the hope, the hope isn't better than the rock bottom. They go hand in hand and you can't have one without the other, and that is basically one of the things that I bang my head against the wall trying to get to that place of acceptance. So I think that is one of the key things accepting that life is here to support our growth. And the more that we can really start to acknowledge that these things that do show up whether we find them positive or negative, whichever way we look at them, it is still just supporting our growth and the more we can accept that and be present through that process, I think the transition into the next phase of that part of your life becomes a lot easier.

Speaker 3: 39:49

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Speaker 2: 39:55

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