Speaker 2: 0:12

Welcome back to the Practical Spirituality Podcast. We are so excited to have you on this journey with us, where we explore all elements of mind, body, emotions and soul through the lens of everyday life.

Speaker 1: 0:29

Hello Kim, Hello Gareth, how are you doing this morning?

Speaker 2: 0:33

I am doing well. How about yourself? I'm actually pretty excited about this topic. Okay, I think it's going to be an interesting topic.

Speaker 1: 0:40

For this week's episode.

Speaker 2: 0:42

We'll be talking about learning to love learning to unlearn what we thought love was, so we could actually learn what true love is exactly, or at least try to learn, what true love is present day?

Speaker 1: 0:54

yes, and the reason why I think it's such an interesting topic. I think it's something we've taken for granted in our understanding and yet it is so different for every single person, and there's very few occasions in life where we've been asked to take a step back and actually understand the different layers, the different approaches, the different experiences and how, depending on the circumstance, on the person, how love is a very different combination of emotions that can appear in any of us. So I just think, when we start to break it down and talk about it openly, I think it'll be interesting to see where this conversation takes us.

Speaker 2: 1:31

Well, I think it's interesting also because, for every single person and every single person's experience, love shows up in a different way, based on what their experiences in life were around this word love what they experienced culturally, what they experienced socially, what they experienced via the TV and types of shows they watched, or the type of relationships they saw in their families. And so, whether we're talking about friendship love, we're talking about sibling love. Whether we're talking about family love, whether we're talking about friendship love, we're talking about sibling love. Whether we're talking about family love, whether we're talking about romantic love, for every single person, we think we have a norm or we think we're using the same word, but it has a completely different meaning for everybody.

Speaker 1: 2:17

Absolutely, and I think that's what's kind of staggering, when you start to dive into it, of how complex and simple love can be, depending on the circumstance and the understanding.

Speaker 1: 2:28

And not to burst the bubble, it's only when you start exploring this topic within ourselves and when you look at the what we define as unconditional love in any of our lives and you begin to see, actually it's a lot more conditional than we were ever led to believe in the different friendships, relationships with family, and but that's all we were ever exposed to.

Speaker 1: 2:49

So therefore that's what we considered that must be what love is. And then you can see that show up in our present day relationships and wondering why it's not working out. But they love me, they say they love me, I feel love, I think. So it's really interesting that when you go back, I think so it's really interesting that when you go back, as you were saying, to where a lot of this originates, see how it applies and appears in present day, and then our willingness to begin to explore it, our definitions of love can really evolve and change when we have that willingness to actually dive in and to question it and then it actually begins to explain the relationship or love, or lack thereof, we have with ourselves. That's a very good point. And then on top of it, and then it actually begins to explain the relationship, or love, or lack thereof, we have with ourselves.

Speaker 2: 3:27

That's a very good point. And then, on top of it, most of us that when we start this spiritual journey and we start reading all of these books that are out there and they talk about spiritual love being unconditional love, or I say encompassing all acceptance of whatever, instead of you know, because when you read a lot of the books that are out there and I'm not picking on any one particular one, but it's like I need to have unconditional acceptance if I love you and it's like, well, actually that's not love and that's another part of this that is multi-layered with it, but it comes into it because every single one of us come into whatever this conversation is with an unconscious belief about love based on what we, like you just said, what we considered the norm, with what we grew up with.

Speaker 2: 4:24

It's quite shocking sometimes to recognize that what we've been calling love sometimes is actually codependence yeah what we've been calling love is actually sometimes manipulation yep and so that can be quite challenging, like you said, for very, quite a few of us, myself included and again, actually experiencing the feeling of love versus loving the idea of something.

Speaker 1: 4:50

That's where, also, a lot of people get caught, because people in theory can love the idea of something, but yet when they're in it or experiencing it, it's like, oh, this isn't what I thought it was, but it's ticking the boxes, so therefore it must be I'm the problem or it must be me.

Speaker 1: 5:03

It's like the grass is always greener on the other side. It's that kind of narrative. It's like we're never quite content with where we're at, or we always condition what the love should be or how we were told it is, and therefore it's like, okay, why can't I get this right, or why isn't this working for me? So I must be unlovable or I can't. I'm not able to love. So I must be unlovable or I can't. I'm not able to love. So you can see how it becomes very complex. And then we, just in order to try to experience that love that we've been taught so much, we just repeat what we've been exposed to, or the relationship our parents had, or what we saw on television or on TV or on the internet. You can see how that leads to a lot of complications in our day-to-day lives that we have to unravel, especially after decades of running those narratives.

Speaker 2: 5:48

Absolutely. And when we say that, oh well, they love me unconditionally, we don't even know who we are. So how could someone love us unconditionally if we don't know who we are or what love actually means to?

Speaker 1: 6:01

us. They love the idea of us.

Speaker 2: 6:03

Well, that is the whole point. I think that you're saying and I wanted to point that out because it's so true. I can remember when I fell in love the first time and everyone told me you're just in love with the idea of being in love. Okay, so perhaps I was. Why burst my bubble at such a young age? It's my first experience with it. Let me have some fun.

Speaker 2: 6:26

Like I found out, I certainly did find out that it was based on my cultural upbringing and what had happened to me and what I thought love was supposed to be, which was actually codependence. But that takes every single one of us a journey to get to that, and I think it's in that I think the big joke on all of us is we are born, we think that we're born to parents who love us, but of course, that comes with the conditions and in order for us to live out our contract, so to say, we have to be unloved in order to learn how to love ourselves again, and so everything that we have learned that we think is love actually is just another one of those trick questions that we have to go in and unravel so we can figure out what it really is. That's my personal opinion and I think that's a bit cynical, but it's the truth.

Speaker 1: 7:27

Yeah, sounds easy, sounds simple, Sounds like a really fun topic to dive into.

Speaker 2: 7:35

I know that a lot of people won't want to agree with that, but if you really think about it, like when I woke up to the fact that what I thought love was was really codependence, it shattered my world.

Speaker 1: 7:46

It's like a sibling to people's relationship with spirituality. It's like we love the idea of it, we're sold on the idea of it, but we actually use it as a form of escapism away from a lot of our realities or traumatic experiences that we don't know how to process. Talk about, feel and love is the escapism. It's like if I've fallen in love then everything goes away. As you said, I'm in a bubble. It's amazing. Nothing can hurt us, nothing can touch us and that's why you see with people that they can be in relationship after relationship after relationship, because they're in search for this goal at the end of the rainbow, or this idea that they've been sold that if I just find that right person, then we'll be in this bubble that they'll complete me exactly, um, but this is why that's not every single person.

Speaker 1: 8:34

Of course, that's not everyone's experience throughout life, but it's just interesting of when you start to break down, where do those foundations for any individual person, of their definitions and exposure to love and how that runs in their day-to-day lives is always fascinating because, as you were saying at the start, the way in which you love your parents versus your sibling, versus your partner, versus your dog, versus your career, it's all love. But when you actually lay them out individually, it couldn't be more different, exactly.

Speaker 2: 9:05

Yes. So how does one define? If we're bursting the idea of what we thought love was, regardless of what that is for each person, how does somebody actually define love?

Speaker 1: 9:19

Well, I'll let you take the lead. I'm very curious what your definition of love is.

Speaker 2: 9:23

I knew you would say that, lead.

Speaker 2: 9:25

I'm very curious what your definition of love is.

Speaker 2: 9:26

I knew you would say that, and so I'm just going to put a prerequisite out here, that you know I'm still a work in progress, so I might not actually have the best definition, but I think the closest I can come to it is because I'm a parent and I have had children, and so I don't know if I know what unconditional love is, because even though when that child was first presented to me it was so wondrous and it was so amazing and I knew that there was this overwhelming sensation there are plenty of times in my parenting that I haven't necessarily liked that little individual or their behavior, but that I would go to any length to work through what was going on in that moment.

Speaker 2: 10:11

And so I think it's an action word as much as it is a feeling word. So I think there is a feeling associated when I love somebody, but I can't just have the feeling and think that's enough. I think that there's a certain amount of action that has to go into that and then a recognition that even though I am putting up the action, I might not get the result that I want, and I'm still going to have the feeling.

Speaker 1: 10:39

Oh, I think that's actually beautifully put because I think you've said in a simple way, but you're covering the complexities in which it can change depending on the person circumstance. I think for me it goes back to actually something you said earlier at the start, starting this journey of actually questioning things internally. It's quite evident that how can you love someone else when they don't know themselves and you don't know yourself? So therefore, it goes back to your exposures, what you've been through, your definitions, like anything. Yes, love can be those emotions that we experience, depending on the circumstances. Emotions come and go. It's not a feeling that's constantly there, 24, 7, right. So therefore it's that.

Speaker 1: 11:20

Then, after that once, if we've dealt with the emotional part of it, then there's a mental and logical association with what we consider when we love something because it's like, oh, I love my partner until you find out they cheated on you, how that went out the door very quickly.

Speaker 1: 11:36

So that love was conditional, it was unconditional until it wasn't right, right, right, and there's a logical association of yeah, no, I have a boundary there. If that's broken, then that's out the, that's out the door, that's out the window. So my point is is that it's only when you actually start to go through each of those micro examples in all of our lives and look at it from an emotional perspective, look at it from a logical and mental perspective that we can understand how much love changes and evolves throughout the decades in any of our lives and depending on the person. But I think, prior to doing this work, for me it was those simple basics of having that dream, that association, that bubble. But then I realized that it's all valid because that is the human experience, it is all love and it is all a part of makes us who we are. But it's the loving and then it's also the heartbreak.

Speaker 2: 12:30

There's something to be experienced with love and they can be the most defining moments in any of our lives well, I think I agree 100%, and one of the ways that just came up as you were explaining that is at the end of my marriage. So I I luckily for me got to experience everything you just spoke about. And so when my ex cheated on me, it was heartbreaking. And did I make the choice to stay? Yes, I did. Did I feel love for him at that time? No, I can honestly say I didn't like him very much, but I knew it was something that I needed to work through In the end. In the end of that marriage, at the end of 20 years, what happened for me and so this is going to feel so controversial to say but what I started to wake up to as I started to get to know myself that I did really love this person.

Speaker 2: 13:25

I didn't like this person very much, but I did love them and want the very best for them, and so, therefore, I knew I had to end the marriage because I did love that person and because I did love my children and why that sounds so controversial I felt like you know, I know it sounds cliche that you know I wanted the best for him, but I also could see how it was destroying me and destroying him for us to stay in this thing called marriage. That wasn't working at that time. I wasn't in love with him but I loved him and you know I'm sure lots of our listeners will understand the difference of that. But and it wasn't a light decision that I made to do that but the decision itself was based on the fact that I cared enough about this person to see that it was destroying all of us.

Speaker 1: 14:18

But that comes with so much mental and emotional maturity and with experience of going through it for those 20 years, because Ian Kim and her first love wasn't thinking or feeling that way about love right no way, and I think that's where, with age and with experience, that we do learn a new kind of love that is more complex, it is more layered, because there are more people involved.

Speaker 1: 14:43

As you say to your kids, there is a completely different set of circumstances and sometimes you learn that sometimes you love the person enough to let each other go. And then, of course, there is the other side of it for other individuals, is that sometimes, even on circumstances where there is, say, cheating involved, individuals sometimes do love each other enough to work through it and it does work out. But this is what I mean by for every single person. It's incredible how that changes and evolves depending on the circumstance and what's going on within them mentally and emotionally I agree and I think when we look at it.

Speaker 2: 15:21

So this is where it comes back to really having an understanding of what love is, because, based on whatever we experienced growing up, and the ideals that we had and then the way life shows up for us.

Speaker 2: 15:36

I know for me the biggest journey has been the journey to loving myself and learning how to have acceptance of me, learning how to know when I need to make changes, that I don't want to make, changes in which God knows. I've had to do quite a few of those, but I didn't know. Like so many people, when we think about how life starts and I can say this as a parent I had that beautiful little baby that didn't have to do anything for me to love it, just its very existence just brought me joy and pleasure and just excitement, and I loved that baby. But as soon as that baby learned to crawl, I started hearing no, no, don't do that. No, you can't do that. Oh, look at you, good job.

Speaker 2: 16:25

And so already the conditioning had begun by that point, because whether we want to condition our children or not and I'm speaking from my point of view I mean my parents didn't know either.

Speaker 2: 16:39

They didn't realize they were conditioning me to what love and acceptance actually was. And so then, based on what happened in that environment, is where we get our truth about what we think love is and whether we are lovable or whether we are not lovable. In my case, I had a firm belief that I was not lovable and all of my experiences up until the point in that marriage that I said, regardless of what's happening in my marriage, I'm going to learn how to love me. I'm no longer going to rely on somebody else's reflection back or what they're saying back to me. I want to find out what this means for me, with me, which sounds confusing, but that's what I had to do, and it was when I started to really actually find out how to care about me that I started to see the injustice of what I was doing in that marriage. Does that make sense?

Speaker 1: 17:35

No, it makes a lot of sense and I think it's good to actually dive in to those foundations of self-love and the journey that takes us on. Being on the spiritual journey meaning starting to question in different ways and want to explore, because I think, regardless of what experience we've been exposed to, what individuals we've been exposed to, it always goes back to actually showing us way more about ourselves than it ever did the other person. Let's take a step back from this week's episode and share with everyone what we've been up to behind the scenes.

Speaker 2: 18:07

We're really excited to be able to finally offer the Gareth Michael community to each of you. The community offers a range of benefits, including access to our live events, weekly podcast episodes, articles, self-checking questions, as well as a community of individuals you can connect with and interact with along the way. It's designed to offer you support, guidance and a safe space on a day-to-day basis. We'd love to have you join our global community of like-minded individuals. That website address, again, is wwwgarethmichaelcom. Now, let's get back to that episode, shall we? Michaelcom? Now, let's get back to that episode, shall we? So?

Speaker 2: 18:50

As someone said to me early on, when I was discussing this a few years back quite a few years back they said you're never really in love with the other person. You're always in love with the idea you hold in your head of the other person. And I was like that's not true. Yes, it is. I hate it when that stuff comes true, but really do not like that moment when that happens. But it's like okay, because we can't possibly truthfully know every aspect of the other person. It is always about learning about ourselves in so many different ways. Learning about ourselves in so many different ways, but if we don't have a foundation of caring for ourself, loving ourself, knowing what our worth actually is, then we are always looking outside of ourselves for that reflection instead of seeing it in ourselves.

Speaker 1: 19:44

On center that we kind of discussed in some of the previous episodes there. I do think that that is kind of sometimes the divine design of any of our human experiences is that we have to go through many years of actually having a not so solid foundation with ourselves that later in life that we actually have the ability to question, to continue to learn more about ourselves and to grow in these different ways. But that is a part of the whole spiritual experience and journey and when we do that we end up connecting with self.

Speaker 2: 20:16

And it's not for the lighthearted sometimes because you know it's great to say I want to have the self-worth. It's really complicated to go in and understand the ins and outs of why I don't feel that I'm worth more or not and that in itself is such a big journey.

Speaker 1: 20:37

Well, I don't think it's a choice, as we both know.

Speaker 1: 20:40

No, as you said many a time, we're often brought in this journey kicking and screaming, and we find ourselves reading certain books, listening to certain podcasts, talking to certain individuals, because life hasn't given us any other options.

Speaker 1: 20:54

We've used all the other options of avoidance that we did have access to, and now we no longer have that option to. So, therefore, the only way we can move forward is by going inwards, and by going inwards it gives us a slight understanding what's going on outwards also. So that's what's fascinating about it is that, at the end of the day, we come in this world on our own, we go out of this world on our own and, yes, during that time we're exposed to a lot of different individuals, but it's this journey always brings us back to self and mind, body, emotions and soul. So when you actually become aware of that, the relationship or the new relationship you start to build with yourself, I think it can be quite incredible, but, as you said, it's not for the faint hearted. But life has its own way of guiding us, of what we need to be exposed to at the right time to be able to start building that relationship.

Speaker 2: 21:46

And really starting to understand that I think I don't know for sure, but I've worked with so many people. I can see that we often think it's easy to learn how to start to find worth within ourself and very quickly that critic shows up, or the criticism shows up which has been with us since day dot, because there are things that we had to learn, those experiences we had to go through, and so it becomes very habitual. That is one of for me I'm going to speak. For me was one of the biggest things to break and still breaking. I'll use that present tense because there will be no one on this planet that will be more analytical of self than me. Notice how I said that kindly to myself.

Speaker 2: 22:38

Because I was going to say more critical of myself, but the truth is I do. Once I started this journey and I started to understand it was an inside job. I don't go in there to criticize myself, but the pattern, the habit of criticizing myself has been there for so long that that's usually the first thing that happens. And to then try and bring compassion into that and go okay, instead of beating myself up, that like, did that work when your dad used to beat you? No, so how about you? Don't beat you? It becomes the thing. So that is what I think most people find challenging and why they want to give up because it feels too challenging. And the rush of someone else in those beginning moments of any relationship where it feels good and everybody's got their best face on and someone's paying attention to us, that feels far easier than dealing with that criticism, um, or trying to find worth within ourselves. That's why a lot of people go oh, I'll just go out here and grab it from out here.

Speaker 1: 23:40

Because it's easier For a period of time.

Speaker 2: 23:43

Yes, yes.

Speaker 1: 23:46

That's true. It is a journey and that is why, along the way sometimes we often mention this on these episodes is that we do need support from time to time to help us build those skill sets, be able to have that self-worthworth, to understand that inner critic and to give us examples in different ways we can begin to show ourselves self-compassion and daily micro tasks, because it's not always a big gesture that is needed, it's actually doing in the many ways and doing our best to be consistent, and that is the quickest way we can actually build a more loving relationship with self and continue to question why our definitions of love are appearing in the way they are because, again, our subconscious or conscious mind it's not going to open up and give us those answers and it's just in a safe and loving environment to be able to give us that information to be able to work with, then to apply to ourselves and to the people around us.

Speaker 2: 24:43

At the beginning of my journey, because there was so much self-criticism, there was pretty much self-hatred, and so when I realized it was an inside job and I had to figure out how to go within, when, well, you know, like I really didn't want to do that, one of the first things I started to do was, as you guys have heard me say, trying to train my brain to stay here instead of in the narrative all the time. So we can call that the racing thoughts, the obsessive thoughts, the constantly being focused on what everybody else is doing, the comparison. All of that is part of okay, wait, that's out there. I need to come in here. Stop that and when. In the process of stopping that, one of the things that I personally did was because I never heard people. I was always in that protective mode. When people would try and speak to me.

Speaker 2: 25:42

As they were speaking, I would be calculating whatever it was I was supposed to be saying in response, so that they didn't leave or they didn't start a fight or whatever it was, to every single word that anybody ever said to me, as if my life depended on it, because they might say the one thing that will click inside of me, that would stop that litany of self-hatred that I had running at that time. But in listening to others, what happened is it gave enough space in the criticism for me to actually hear the parts of me that were wounded, that needed attention, that prior to that I didn't really even know were there because I just wanted to annihilate all of that. Does that make sense? And so for me, that was part of it is, we say, learning to listen and have empathy with self. I didn't know how to do that, so I started listening and having empathy for others, which allowed me to have that empathy for myself.

Speaker 1: 26:49

But I think this was interesting. Even when we're talking about love, let it be building that relationship with self in that way and even how the relationships that we have around us and how love continues to evolve and change in those also. But when we're doing the journey on self and starting to look at those wounds that we've had from over the years, from different experiences, it can be very hard at times to as you were talking about in your own way to allow ourselves to be vulnerable to let new people in. We just have so much trauma and baggage at times that we don't even let us expose ourselves to ourselves, never mind actually continuing to open up to others. So I think, before being even really able to connect with other people present day and moving forward, we do have to go back sometimes and understand the journey we still have to do to heal ourselves. That is a loving gesture within itself. So we need to.

Speaker 2: 27:49

A lot of people in the industry say we need to find ways to move past our hurt and find forgiveness in a lot of different ways you know I have I have a strong opinion on that, as we've talked about in previous episodes, and so I think the forgiveness that needs to be found is with ourself, and if we have forgiven ourself for those past wounds and hurts and the perceptions that we picked up with, the beliefs that we picked up about ourselves or others, then the relationship with others flow.

Speaker 2: 28:20

You know, I know there's a big belief out there that we need to forgive ourselves and another, but I think if we are able to go in and forgive ourselves for what we believed about the situation, then there tends to be that understanding and forgiveness naturally. So that's why I don't focus on forgiving another. I think, even if you break down the word forgiving to two words, two syllables, forgiving it's about giving to ourselves that which we've been seeking outside of ourselves for our entire life. So that gives forgiving a whole different meaning, and I think until we give that love, compassion, empathy to ourselves, we'll never be able to give it to another in any form, whether that's friendship, love relationships, sibling relationships, children. I think it's one of those things that we're constantly building on, but it's in doing that that we can then turn around and give it to someone else.

Speaker 1: 29:25

I think this is a topic I would call a food for thought topic.

Speaker 1: 29:29

I agree, because it's not something that you can necessarily get wrong and we're all on the same journey of discovering, uncovering, rewriting our understandings about love in any of our lives, and it's only when you have these kind of open discussions that it makes you actually just self-reflect on your own individual journey with love and the ways it has been conditional, unconditional, the ways in which you experience it in mind, body, emotion, soul. It's just such a fascinating topic because I think it's very easy to oversimplify it in mind, body, emotion, soul. It's just such a fascinating topic because I think it's very easy to oversimplify it at times and say, oh, love's just an emotion and you experience it in very set circumstances, whereas actually it's so beautiful in its complexity that I just want to have this conversation because I don't think we give it enough credit at times or give it enough time to explore it within ourselves. That can be incredibly healing and it'll always bring it back to ourselves and what we've been searching for, told to search for externally for so long.

Speaker 2: 30:27

I agree completely with that and I think one of the really beautiful parts about it being food for thought is every single one of us at some level, has to go through this thought process about what love actually is. What does it mean to us? How do we want love to show up in our life? How do we want to be that representation of love in whatever that means to us? And there is so many complexities, sometimes people you know they don't know where to start and so, just beginning to look at it from the different aspects and questioning, well, what kind of love has always shown up in my life? I think that's, and how would I want it to be?

Speaker 1: 31:12

Because I think we all know what love is until we don't, until what we thought was love doesn't feel like love anymore.

Speaker 2: 31:20

Do you know that?

Speaker 1: 31:21

often happens without our permission, as we all have experienced, and that's where the emotional maturity, mental maturity, physical maturity comes along. So life's constantly finding new ways to redefine it for ourselves, and I think that's the beauty and the mystery at times. But it's often right in our faces, just we've never been told to open our eyes and to explore it.

Speaker 2: 31:39

Exactly, exactly. Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, then you might want to check out our online community. We built it to offer you the comfort of having a supportive community by your side, no matter where life takes you. Connect with like-minded individuals through our app, thank you. Advance access to each new episode. The opportunity to ask questions directly of Gareth and I. Input into what topics we cover in the show. Access to exclusive content not available anywhere else. To learn more about our community, please go to wwwgarethmichaelcom. Thanks again, and I hope you guys are having a lovely week.