Kim Jewell: 0:12

Welcome back to the Practical Spirituality Podcast. We are so excited to have you on this journey with us, where we explore all elements of mind, body, emotions and soul through the lens of everyday life.

Gareth Michael: 0:29

Hello Kim.

Kim Jewell: 0:30

Hi Gareth, how are you today?

Gareth Michael: 0:32

I'm doing good. How are you doing this morning?

Kim Jewell: 0:34

I'm doing pretty good.

Gareth Michael: 0:35

I think there's another interesting conversation for us to have on this episode.

Kim Jewell: 0:40

It's going to be an interesting one.

Gareth Michael: 0:41

I think it's something that you always manifest in your life without meaning to.

Kim Jewell: 0:48

That's true. That is very true. I never thought about that.

Gareth Michael: 0:53

This is going to be a very interesting episode, but in this week's episode we're going to be talking about confrontation. Oh joy, I have a feeling when people see that in the title, they're not going to click play.

Kim Jewell: 1:03

Oh, I think they'll click play because they go oh my gosh, I spent my whole life trying to avoid this stuff. Let's see how they approach it.

Gareth Michael: 1:11

Yes, I agree, it's something that always inevitably finds us, whether we're looking for it or not, is confrontation.

Kim Jewell: 1:18

Very true, I think if you're breathing, you deal with confrontation on some level or another. So yeah, I think so. But it is funny, you know, because one of the things that when we say the word confrontation, everybody always thinks about, you know some sort of aggression or some sort of conflict, instead of just having the ability to face whatever's coming up for you head on. Yep.

Gareth Michael: 1:44

And, like most things, we talk about their relationship, and even definitions of what confrontation is changes from person to person, because naturally, yes, of course, you can have confrontation with other people, but we can have a lot of confrontation with ourselves, which is also very true when it comes to our mind, body, emotions and what we go through past, present and inevitably into the future, so maybe we should dive in. So what is your understanding of confrontation, or even how would you define it personally, or what's some Kim's stories you have for us?

Kim Jewell: 2:13

As soon as you said that I was like having to face the things you want to run away from all the time, like, I think, the idea of confrontation because you said when you just said about facing it within ourselves, I went. You know, that is where I think my biggest struggle has been.

Gareth Michael: 2:31

My whole life is I've had an idea of who I've wanted to be and the confrontation is me having to come to terms with who I actually am yeah, and I think another way of saying it which is pretty obviously similar is that you could, so to speak, argue that from birth we don't come into the world having confrontation with ourselves. When we come into the world we're content, we're at peace, we're looking for some very basic needs as a young infant. So therefore we are exposed to confrontation in different ways from our caregivers, from young age, from siblings. It depends on the circumstance. And then I think, over time, when that builds up on us, there's a lot of confusion in mind, body, emotions. Then that plants that seed of confrontation with self. There must be something wrong with me and then we find ourselves fighting ourselves and the world around us also. And I think if you look at anyone's life you can see seeds planted of that everywhere you look.

Kim Jewell: 3:27

Everywhere. And I think you know like we were just talking before this episode about my son's children and one of them being two and a half, and that is an age where that sort of thing happens a lot you just, you know the parents have an idea of how they want the child to be and the child just wants what the child wants, and immediately there's a confrontation and so it's about how do you negotiate some of those things. So I think it is an ongoing thing that has been set up from the time that we're very small. But it's set up with the purpose that we misunderstand. Yeah, because we think it's a bad thing, and I think that's the general consensus. Some people actually like confrontation, but they're very few and far between. Would you agree?

Gareth Michael: 4:19

Very few and far between.

Gareth Michael: 4:20

But even developing a relationship with confrontation, it's a very hard balance to strike, I think, especially as an adult, because you're dealing with past fears, past traumas, you're redefining different elements of your relationship with confrontation and the negative emotions that we often speak about.

Gareth Michael: 4:37

So then it's kind of like I want to be able to coexist with confrontation when it presents itself to me, but at the same time I don't want to go searching for it either. I don't want to naturally create confrontation for the sake of creating it, but, as we all have experienced, even when you're not actively looking for it, life has interesting ways to bring it into our lives, and for most of us, most days, there's some sort of confrontation of some kind. And depending on what way it appears in our lives, it's amazing how we respond differently versus if it's confrontation with a parent, versus a partner, versus with kids, versus with an employer. It changes depending on the circumstance of our ability to want to engage with it or to want to completely avoid it. And, of course, that spectrum can vary quite differently from person to person. And, as you, that spectrum can vary quite differently from person to person.

Kim Jewell: 5:25

And, as you said, it's multi-layered depending on how things were dealt with as we were growing up. So in one of the definitions we have we talk about, it's about addressing issues directly and honestly. And I go see, I'm down with that. I like that, that's me, but that was never accepted in my childhood. For me to address things directly and honestly, because you shouldn't say it like that, you shouldn't do this, you shouldn't do that, and I'm not alone in that. I think all of us. You should go to bed at a certain time. This is how you should go to bed, this is how you should behave, instead of really understanding what the person, whoever it is needs. And so we've been hitting that for most of our life.

Kim Jewell: 6:13

And I don't know about you, but for me and the family that I grew up in, with my father being in the military and my mom being a very strict Catholic, well, you just were not allowed to have confrontation. I mean, there was plenty of confrontation, but you weren't allowed to initiate it in any way is what I meant to say, and so I don't think that's very different for a lot of people. So by the time we're cognitively at that stage in our life where we're going. Okay, well, I want to confront things head on, directly and honestly, or I want to be able to understand, because I do think sometimes conflict is about trying to understand, and so I want to understand this. So help me understand it. But now you've got all that fear that's behind it, because if I say what I really think, I'm going to be guilted, shamed. I say what I really think, I'm going to be guilted, shamed, dismissed, betrayed, rejected all of those things, and so you can avoid it.

Gareth Michael: 7:15

We both know at this stage, and from looking at it internally with ourselves, that conflict can be such a powerful tool within itself for growth, because it tells you so much about yourself. It tells you so much about yourself, it tells you so much about the connections that you have in your life and whether someone is actually creating the conflict in order to want to solve a problem logically and out of passion, of wanting to understand, as you were saying, versus it being used as an emotional tool to try to control another person or to manipulate, or and this is where it does change from person to person of whether conflict is either a positive thing or extremely abusive and negative experience to go through. And it's safe to say that everyone has probably experienced more the abusive side of conflict or the fear that it brings up, and with that, if you go back to the history, as you were talking about, the fears that it brings up is just even different anxieties, the discomfort going back to all the different negative emotions we don't know how to talk about, don't know how to express, to feel, and then it's the fear of rejection and the how it can damage so many relationships that we have in our lives that we do value really highly. But it's also the relationships from a young age. They're the ones that's all we know.

Gareth Michael: 8:23

Suddenly, when you're willing to, as you say, maybe address issues directly and be honest of whatever's going on in your mind at that time, often that can be met with silent treatment or in different ways of they are not welcoming your honesty, and then that's what brings up those negative emotions of oh my god, they're going to leave me. This is not a safe environment, and so we can see from a very young age how that continues to compound over a period of time and that we were never given the chance to actually feel comfortable with those negative emotions that confrontation brings up. But, as we were talking about, confrontation is such a positive thing because you actually need it at times to figure out logical problems.

Kim Jewell: 9:08

Well, that's very true, but then, yes, I have to look at the other side of the coin, which probably is more common than ever before in well, I don't want to say in the history of man, but you know, we now have generational trauma that's been handed down through the years, so you have a whole subset of society that just has drama and intensity and conflict, because that avoids everything, and so these people have been conditioned to be in this constant state of drama, and so they think they love conflict, but they're not loving conflict for the wanting to understand it and move forward, and I don't think they consciously think they want it for abuse, but it just becomes habitual and they get addicted to that kind of drama and intensity, and so they think they love it, but they're actually using it to avoid, because if I'm coming in and dropping a bomb and watching everybody explode, then I don't have to look at me and I certainly don't have to deal with whatever it is I don't want to deal with.

Kim Jewell: 10:05

And I think that there's a whole lot of that that happens out there as well, which, of course, then for them, looking at conflict in a healthy way, feels completely foreign, and so we can now understand why so many people avoid it Like I can tell you that I wanted to avoid conflict, you know, 90% of my life and, if I'm honest, I still avoid conflict on lots of levels, if I'm really honest with myself and I watch other people who are self-assured and who have a healthy sense of what conflict and confrontation is, and I continue to be amazed that there is and of course, I have so much learning behind it and I understand it logically, why that is. But when I watch someone who has such a sense of self that doesn't see conflict as an issue and they're not abusing it or using it for the drama card, they're just boom straight down the line. I just think they're a creature from another planet. That's what I think.

Gareth Michael: 11:15

As you were saying that, I was about to say I love conflict, I love confrontation.

Gareth Michael: 11:23

Like I said, a creature from another planet I'll try to think that as a compliment for us that a confrontation begins. But I think it's easy to want to avoid confrontation at all costs. But from questioning it myself and my relationship with thought, like anything else we talk about in this podcast, I've figured out, say, a formula for me of who it's worth having confrontation with. Okay, because I respect what confrontation is. I respect my own emotions, I expect where I'm at mentally, emotionally. But if I already know, either with a history with a person or someone I don't know, and I don't feel like that, having confrontation with a person is actually going to get anywhere we can't hear each other then why there's actually, so to speak, no point in willingly engaging and not knowing that it's actually not going to produce anything, it's not going to produce any growth, it's actually going to cause more harm or more pain or more trauma and it's only going to bring up old wounds for both party. And then it becomes a match of who can win the debate or who exhausts who. And we've all done that in the past in different ways between family and friends, and we all have a history with that. So we all know it doesn't get anywhere and I think that's why, being able to understand okay, what's bringing up within me, can I actually have a conversation with this person, even if there is conflict? Can we actually walk away, come back, continue the conversation?

Gareth Michael: 12:47

Conversations can get heated at times. There's nothing wrong with that. But what's tricky is that when you are with family or a partner and they constantly see it as their need to say win the argument, win the conversation, and you're not able to walk away from it, that's where it becomes a very tricky conversation, because I think we've also found times that you end up in family events where you just don't open your mouth or you just don't talk because, like what's the point? But yet these people you've known your entire life. And you don't talk because, like what's the point? But yet these people you've known your entire life and you don't want to walk away from them either and that that's that is the dilemma for so many people.

Kim Jewell: 13:21

And you know we spend our our childhood, growing up, being taught to avoid disagreements.

Kim Jewell: 13:27

You know that we need to keep the peace and that how important it is to keep the peace, but when that peace starts to affect your life and you don't want to be around family, you don't want to go to events, or you have that feeling because I think, one of the things that if everybody could keep in mind, we all want to be seen, we all want to be heard and we all want to be understood.

Kim Jewell: 13:48

I think those are basic human needs that every single person has. And so if we could take that approach when we look at confrontation sometimes, then it's not about keeping the peace, it's about hearing the other person and being heard. It's about understanding the other person and being understood. It's about valuing what the other person has to say or needs to say and feeling valued in yourself. And if we could take that approach to a confrontation, even if it is within ourselves, because there's something boiling up inside of me, if I'm feeling that internal conflict, and if I could take that same approach with myself, then it's going to be much easier to look at the things I've been trying to avoid. Would you agree with that?

Gareth Michael: 14:36

Sounds wonderful on paper.

Kim Jewell: 14:38

On paper yeah much easier to look at the things I've been trying to avoid. Would you agree with that? Sounds wonderful on paper. On paper, yeah, it's the getting out there and living it, and because we're all coming from our different maps of the world, then it's the tricky part of navigating it.

Gareth Michael: 14:51

But I think that's what's so hard though, because we both know when putting those situations where conflict often comes out of nowhere or kind of surprises everyone, triggerments happen very quickly and we find ourselves going into the fight flight, freeze, fawn responses. It's actually hard to to dissolve those patterns and to even start to introduce new ways of how we approach something like confrontation, because it's just been so drilled into us from such a young age.

Kim Jewell: 15:20

And also, like in my case. You know, this is where the fawning comes in. When the environment is not a safe environment, we learn to do that. I've got to keep everybody else happy, and so then confrontation then becomes everything to be avoided, because if I can't keep everybody happy, it took me so long to get that, even when I reconnected with an old friend. This is such a typical thing for me, and you and I have talked about this in many different areas of my life so I connected with this old friend and they had a different political view than I did, and they had a different political view than I did, and I immediately found myself shutting down and saying nothing and I couldn't understand that, because I'm pretty straightforward Now.

Kim Jewell: 16:03

I don't speak about politics and religion to very many people, period. That's my go-to because it is very layered in many ways. But this was someone I considered very close when I started examining what was happening for me. It was like, I believe, that I tell them how I feel they will leave, and the desire to have them in my life was greater than to be heard, and this sometimes is what happens to so many people when it comes to this idea of confrontation in the fawning Yep. We've been taught to fight or to run away, but then we've also been taught just keep the peace, no matter what.

Gareth Michael: 16:41

And I think that's where it's interesting to dive into. What are some of the consequences of when we find ourselves avoiding confrontation and the different ways that appears in our lives?

Kim Jewell: 16:51

The number one thing, I think, is like we talk about this so often you and I were just talking about it before the narrative, the built up resentment, and the narrative that starts to form, you know, the narrative about ourselves, but also the narrative about somebody else and how we just if we don't express how we feel in a healthy way, it's going to come out sideways everywhere healthy way.

Gareth Michael: 17:17

It's going to come out sideways everywhere. It's also that if we feel we can't communicate or be open or be honest about what's going on in this mentally or emotionally, it's inevitably going to lead to a lot of miscommunication and assumptions, but not only from ourselves to other people, but other people about us, and that's only going to lead to inevitably more confrontation. But the fact we were avoiding it to start with led to miscommunication, led to assumptions, which only ever leads to more confrontation that we're going to be met with. So you can see how this is ongoing loop and I think that's why we are. We are faced with it every single day through our partners, kids, parents, through work, because everyone is trying to avoid something that is, quite frankly, unavoidable. That doesn't mean we stop trying.

Kim Jewell: 17:59

Well, that's very true, and you know what it does to us. When we do stop or we're trying to avoid it, we stun our own personal growth. You know we can't possibly grow and for years, even though I've always thought that I'm very frank to the point tell the truth, I don't have a poker face I still avoided confrontation with my life. You know, I've become an expert at changing the topic, putting it back towards somebody else else, because it's to me for so many of the years that fight was not worth how it played out inside of me, but at the same time, then I wasn't allowed to be me. I wasn't allowed to build that sense of self. I wasn't. And when I say allow, I'm not allowing me is what I mean. I'm not talking about the other person. It doesn't allow me to get out there and really understand how to have healthy communication Doesn't help me understand how to have healthy confrontation Doesn't help me understand that there is a way that both parties can be heard.

Gareth Michael: 19:12

Let's take a step back from this week's episode and share with everyone what we've been up to behind the scenes.

Kim Jewell: 19:18

We're really excited to be able to finally offer the Gareth Michael community to each of you. The community offers a range of benefits, including access to our live events, weekly podcast episodes, articles, self-checking questions, as well as a community of individuals you can connect with and interact with along the way. It's designed to offer you support, guidance and a safe space on a day-to-day basis. We'd love to have you join our global community of like-minded individuals. That website address, again, is wwwgarethmichaelcom. Now let's get back to that episode, shall we?

Gareth Michael: 20:00

But I think this is where it's also interesting and I just kind of want both of us to run with this a little bit, because trying to find that balance of finding your voice, opening up, doing that comfortably, while also trying to keep, at times, family and friends in your life because no one wants to always walk away from their family completely, yes, but because it's not always confrontation 100% of the time in everyone's life, but yet if we're with our family or friends and we can't be ourselves or openly communicate, then of course it is going to affect our personal growth, as you were saying. But therefore, I think that's why we do have to find people that it be therapists, psychologists, coaches, new friendships at times that actually allow us to start working on ourselves in those different ways, building a relationship with confrontation, kind of knowing who we can be confrontational with versus the people we can't be. And but that doesn't mean that you're limiting yourself for your personality, because you've now found these other people that you can be completely open with, can be yourself with, and I think that's a skill that they don't tell you about in school that there's going to be some people. That is sometimes. It's actually good to close yourself down for the right reasons, because you actually know it's not worth it, because the other person is not going to change, but yet you don't want to walk away from them either. So therefore you have to go out there and try to find that balance in other ways.

Gareth Michael: 21:22

If a situation is abusive in any sense or it's very unhealthy, then it's a very different conversation. But I'm saying for the average person is that if you feel you can't be yourself around family members, around friends, because of such a fear of confrontation, you know we have to try to find ways to balance that out by discovering new people, discovering new ways understanding our relationship with confrontation, negative emotions, how we're going to learn to express ourselves more. And sometimes we wait too often in the relationships we've known for a lifetime for the other person to make the first move. And guess what? That doesn't often happen, if ever.

Kim Jewell: 21:58

Well, I think, as you said, you know, we talk about understanding how to do that and how to find the balance, and of course, it has to start with us. It has to start with that self-reflection. It has to start with dealing with the like you know and I like to speak for myself my own inner conflict and how torn I was about everything. Many times you've heard me mention on this podcast my children will call me to ask a question and they always pre-frame the question with now you can say no, mom, and that just it used to send me through the tree because I go. Well, now I know I can't say no because you've already prefaced it with this, because that is that internal training and that fear of rejection.

Kim Jewell: 22:43

Well, for a long time I didn't understand what that was about. It wasn't until I started really going within and going okay. So why is it that every time I need to speak, my needs, there is a complete meltdown internally for myself, and so I'm not saying that that's what happens for everybody, I'm just speaking about myself. But when we talk about finding that balance, if we don't know we're out of balance… how are we going to find the balance?

Gareth Michael: 23:13

Yeah.

Kim Jewell: 23:13

And so this is why you know, society teaches us that if you need help or you need therapy or you have to talk to somebody, there's something wrong with you. Well, that's a little bit outdated and antiquated way of approaching the world, because we have so much influence today that I don't know how anyone figures out what their own path is, and that is why you need a guide. You certainly don't go to a foreign country for the first time and go oh, I've got this. I can't speak the language, I can't do any of it, but I'll just wing it. I mean, some people do, but mostly people will get a guide because they don't want to miss some of the relevant places. And so this is the same with life and confrontation or dealing with our emotional stuff to find that balance. And once we start to get it within ourselves, then we can start to look at dealing with an outside world in a different way.

Gareth Michael: 24:10

But not leads right into. It's about really changing our perspective and things that we can't avoid full-time within our lives. The confrontation is going to happen, whether we're looking for it or not. So I think if we know it's inevitably going to show up in our lives, then the only thing we can do for ourselves is learn and build a relationship with it itself. The different layers of emotions that it brings up, the different memories and traumas that it brings up, the different individuals that we think of when we think of confrontation. They're all areas to actually get to know ourselves better, and it's only when you're willing to question it, as you were saying, and understand why they're a part of our lives, it can become a useful tool for problem solving and even finding new connections in this life, because when you are questioning yourself in this way, you do start to open up and become an open up next chapter of your life, and when you do that, you actually organically create new connections and maybe you didn't expect that would be there.

Kim Jewell: 25:07

Yes, because you're operating from the world in a completely different way. So, exactly, it brings up, then, healthy confrontation. And you know, let's just take this last political cycle that happened in the United States. There was so much division there. Now I'm not going to go deep into it, I'm just going to say there was so much division there, and part of that is because we have gone so far away from allowing each person to have their own opinion and to be able to honestly discuss that and agree to disagree, because it's okay to agree to disagree, and that is something that I think the whole world has kind of forgotten.

Kim Jewell: 25:44

You know, or it's been trained out of us, that you're either with me or you're against me, as I've heard so many times, and I go why can't it be both? And that is about learning. So when you have a good sense of self and you're not feeling threatened by somebody else's belief or what they value, you have that, and that comes from changing our perspective, as you were just saying, now we can have healthy confrontation. I can say, oh wow, that's interesting. I didn't understand that. That is why you thought that way.

Kim Jewell: 26:15

It doesn't mean I have to take it on. It doesn't mean I have to take it on. It doesn't mean I have to agree with it. And so that is the benefit of healthy confrontation, because it is simply acknowledging people are where they are, you are where you are, but you can still have a very interesting and straightforward conversation about it. All of us crave that, whether we understand that we do or not, and the more that we're able to do it, we then feel more empowered within ourself Because, oh, I had that conversation and they didn't reject me. I had that conversation and they didn't tell me I was an idiot or whatever the previous fear was before, when I couldn't do it. And also it gives you the ability to resolve something before it snowballs into a massive whatever they become.

Gareth Michael: 27:05

But I think, even if we're looking back at the spiritual understanding of why conflict continues to appear in different areas of our lives, it's because if there's growth within it, it will continue to appear.

Gareth Michael: 27:15

So when we look out, as we often talk about, whatever's going on in the inside world will be reflected in the outside world in some way.

Gareth Michael: 27:23

And just because we've got good at ignoring certain elements about the world within us and the world outside of us I'm good at burying stuff life gets very creative in reintroducing these different things to us for us to learn and grow. So that's what we're all here for in our own ways, and no one can do that journey for us. So therefore, if there's parts of us that have been trained to ignore it, our energy will continue to bring it up until we're willing to open our eyes or take that step in getting to know ourselves better. And if we don't want to get to know ourselves better, then this conflict will keep appearing in multiple different ways. And then, even when you do get to know yourself better, it becomes healthy conflict, because you can see why the energy has actually brought it in front of you, because you're learning the lessons that come along with it where beforehand we were blind to it more often than not.

Kim Jewell: 28:11

That's very true. Having said all of that, one of the things I think people don't understand or what you said in there that caught my ear at least was when we look at confrontation as a way of growth and that we're seeking it out for growth because we're all here to grow. The only problem with that is how many people in the world are aware that that's what we're here to do. So I think it's great that you and I have this concept, and a lot of the people listening to the podcast will have that thought as well. But how long did it take us to get there?

Gareth Michael: 28:48

So long and I think that's even going back to what we were briefly discussing there a few minutes ago of changing the perspective, that or the narrative of why these things appear. Because, even saying okay beforehand, my go-to, because of my upbringing, because of society, it was to run away, to avoid, to flight, freeze, fawn responses. Okay, then, if you change it of okay, I'm still going to respond in these different ways. It takes time to evolve or change those responses, responses that have been coming to me for so long, and changing the perspective, even for me, was okay.

Gareth Michael: 29:26

Why is my energy putting this in front of me now? What's it trying to teach me? Or even, if you say, why are my guides actually bringing in conflict into my life? Now, what are they trying to me? I've been asking for signs for so long. Then conflict appears and we run away, you know. But this is where we don't often actually understand the signs and what the signs are, because we're always expecting it to be so super positive all of the time, yes Whereas often the conflict is actually guiding us more than positivity ever would. Now, it took me so long, I want to say, to actually understand that both are equally guides, but in completely different ways.

Kim Jewell: 30:02

Yes, yes, I agree wholeheartedly, and it took me even longer.

Gareth Michael: 30:10

We're both on the slow bus.

Kim Jewell: 30:13

But I think I really wanted to emphasize this, because we're so, all of us are so quick to judge ourselves. And if we don't understand it and people hear Gareth saying you know that we actually welcome it for the growth, Well, part of me goes hang on, I've had enough now. Or, like you said, these are actually signs. And I go no, the universe is punishing me. It might be signs, but it's punishing me because I don't know what I did wrong and when we have those kinds of thoughts, we're looking at it from that old, skewered point of view instead of the new perspective.

Kim Jewell: 30:51

That you're saying and so we're saying. One of the first steps here to really get to healthy confrontation is to shift our perspective about growth so that we can, you know, invite it.

Gareth Michael: 31:11

The hesitation has been felt by everyone there. I was trying to find the right word.

Kim Jewell: 31:15

I didn't want to say welcome it, because it's like, oh, not welcome.

Gareth Michael: 31:20

But I think the human part of us is always not going to want the negativity, the confrontation. You know, it's just not a part of us that we're going to naturally want to invite day in, day out. We all can agree with that, okay. But I think it's that reality of now knowing and changing that perspective of it is there to teach me something. I am not going and looking for confrontation, as we talked about. I'm not trying to start arguments, I'm not trying to do that for the sake of doing it but at the same time, if there's any part of me trying to avoid that situation, that is where the growth is.

Kim Jewell: 31:58

Yes, and that's something I did learn early on. If I want to avoid it, it's probably something I need to look at. Or the other thing that I used to say, and still say if you spot it, you got it. So if I find myself sitting in judgment of somebody, it's like whoa, pull back. And where is that in you that you don't want to look at it?

Gareth Michael: 32:21

You don't judge people, you analyze people.

Kim Jewell: 32:23

I do a little bit of both, I can be honest.

Gareth Michael: 32:30

Different perspectives, you know.

Kim Jewell: 32:33

That's right, but it's true. You know, like even I, I've just recently had an uh, an event where that happened, where I just was like, no, I don't want to deal with this person, and so it was through that, those years of growth where I go, okay. So what is it about this person that it's firing something up inside of me and what is it? I haven't looked at about me yet, and it doesn't always have to be a bad thing.

Gareth Michael: 33:01

No, but this is why educating the mind in ways to allow it to question the circumstances unfolding in front of it becomes so important. Because if you don't have that logical information present and actively working with you, then it's only inevitable that the emotions and the experiences that are bringing up those select emotions are never going to take over is kind of the point and shut us down and have us go into the flight freeze phone responses. So that's where we so talk about so often. Is that educating ourselves on it and training ourselves to ask questions about what are we feeling? What are we thinking? What is it about the circumstance? What conclusions are we jumping to that are not necessarily based on fact?

Gareth Michael: 33:43

Doing all of this when, what ways are we rejecting ourselves but saying they're rejecting me, as you're saying? It's just that's where it becomes really fascinating and that's where the goal does line our pockets. And then you find that the emotions aren't necessarily even the problem in that sense at all, but we've been demonizing them for so long. A lot of us come from households and societies that didn't let us express and as we talked about in a different episode, and then part of the reason is that because if we have a bad relationship with our emotions, a bad relationship with our mind, a bad relationship with it all, then it's a lot easier for people to manipulate us, to control us and to have us be what they need us to be and therefore the cycles continue until life has a different plan for us to start breaking those cycles for the right reasons.

Kim Jewell: 34:27

I agree, and I think the other thing in finding that balance, or really learning how to have effective confrontation, is looking at timing. So many of us were taught, and I'll bring up a phrase. That phrase is never go to bed on an argument. So you know that phrase. Oh, you should never go to bed arguing. Well, the truth is, if a confrontation has happened and all of these old stuff, all the old stuff has been brought to the surface, trying to resolve that in the height of that emotion is the worst time ever. No, I don't remember anyone ever saying that to me through the years, because I always thought you're not supposed to go to bed on an argument. So I need to get this completely cleared out and resolved before I can go to sleep and I can feel better about it. But like you said about the fight, flight freeze response happens in 0.007 of a millisecond. You're in it.

Kim Jewell: 35:27

You're not going to resolve anything, you're just going to be responding to those old things that you were just previously speaking about.

Gareth Michael: 35:39

Another thing a person's not allowed to leave the house or leave a place in the middle of an argument in case they die, and then you're left with the guilt of that or the shame of oh, we left on bad terms. It's the same thing, but in a different way, of it's actually fear driving, trying to dissolve the confrontation, not because it's even for the right reasons, of wanting to grow from it. It's like how do I avoid something worse happening than this confrontation?

Kim Jewell: 36:00

And so what I would say to that is throw those two sayings right out the window. Just throw them out the window because they're highly ineffective. But and what I have found true for myself. Now, I know not everybody has had the same journey as me, but what I have found is once, when I was starting to learn how to deal with confrontation in a healthy way, once I have been triggered into any of those old responses, my first response is stop, excuse me, I just need to run to the restroom for a minute, because that was my favorite place to bring myself back to the present moment, because I couldn't possibly have a healthy confrontation or discussion with anybody.

Kim Jewell: 36:41

If I'm coming from a younger, insecure self that feels like my life is threatened. So when I go off and whether that's, I just need to go and have a quick walk, can we? You know and I think Brene Brown coined this phrase, you know, can we circle back? Can we just pause here and circle back when we both have calmed down? Those are effectively more effective ways to deal with confrontation than to keep going when both people are at a peak emotional state. Would you agree with that?

Gareth Michael: 37:15

Yeah, absolutely would, and I think it's in learning those different techniques becomes a huge benefit of beginning to build a relationship with confrontation, but not only within ourselves, but with the people around us moving forward. So maybe we should continue with, or on that line of thinking about what's the different ways we can approach confrontation effectively in day-to-day life so some of the things that I was just speaking about I I think are the very first steps.

Kim Jewell: 37:41

You know you want to before.

Kim Jewell: 37:43

I mean, sometimes we don't have the obviously the time to do that, but if we know we're going to consciously confront a situation, we can take some time to self reflect and really find out what is our part in it.

Kim Jewell: 37:59

What is it you know we want to gain from having this conversation that we're about to have? And then, like I said about the time, you know, I often say to people if you want to talk to somebody about something, why don't you find a neutral place to do it? Why don't you find a time when neither person is really upset and say, hey, I just want to come back to this topic we talked about before and just share some of my own thoughts on it. It doesn't have to always be about gearing up for a fight and it's about then remembering because you've done that self-reflection, because you're here, because you want to absolutely resolve or be able to move forward with something, then it's about reminding yourself to stay calm and if you find yourself not being calm, give yourself permission to have that out and go for a walk and come back to it.

Gareth Michael: 38:56

Diving deeper into it. I think, especially if we're planning to have a conversation with someone or there's certain things on our mind that we feel we need to get out or we need to discuss with that person, reflecting on the purpose of the conversation or actually you know for yourself the other person, what are you hoping is the result that comes from this, and often if you are having this conversation with someone that you know quite well, you can anticipate what their reactions are most likely going to be. Why? Because you've probably known this person or these people for a very long time. So even if the idea of that is bringing up anxiety or it's bringing up a lot of certain emotions within yourself, that actually is showing you where you have to do work with relationship with self and your relationship with those emotions. And that's actually a really good pointer to go to someone you trust and start working through that before even maybe going straight to the person to have that, maybe that potential confrontational talk. Because if that anxiety is still there, it's going to make actually having the talk somewhat even harder for you to want to have and you'll want to avoid it and put it off for even longer if the idea that it can be such a guide in where we're still not quite clear whether there's confusion within self about mind, emotions and even how our body responds to the idea of entering those confrontational conversations and even in staying calm, as you were saying there, in the end it just goes to show that if we're struggling to do that, if those emotions are building, it does guide us of our emotions and our relationship with our emotions present day and where we maybe need to learn how to continue to regulate our emotions and build a relationship with them.

Gareth Michael: 40:29

And there is so many different techniques and mindfulness and meditations and guided meditations that we can do building the education part of understanding what the role of the emotions are in our system, why they're presenting themselves the way they are. Our mind and our emotions are trying to work together to decode parts of our past that it doesn't currently understand. So it's not trying to encourage you into a tricky position present day for the sake of doing it. It wants you to understand self so that you are able to confidently go into these circumstances where confrontation is going to continue to be present in your day to day life in order to grow. So even if the idea of confrontation is bringing up stuff in you today. That's just showing you where you have to unpack before adding more confrontation to your memories and to your past.

Kim Jewell: 41:18

Absolutely, and one of the things when you talk about staying calm, one of the tricks that I learned because literally this is what it felt like for me I know it's not a trick, but felt like a trick was learning to actively listen, and one of the tools I use for that was every time the other person opened their mouth, I would say to myself I have to listen to every single word to understand exactly what they're saying, because they might have.

Kim Jewell: 41:47

The one thing that I've missed and what that did for me was, instead of going in trying to prepare what my response was going to be, as so many people do, we're not actually listening to understand the other person then, because we're trying to get our point across. When we go in and we're actively listening and we're really trying to understand what the other person is saying, then we are going to hear that information differently, but it also gives us the space then to acknowledge what's going on for them, so they feel heard and validated, and then your response becomes natural and it's much easier for it not to be so heated.

Gareth Michael: 42:32

And speaking of heated, I think the next few things go without saying, but it's easier said than done. As we both know, it's important when we're actively engaged in confrontation that we try to avoid personal attacks when possible. Did you hear that?

Kim Jewell: 42:50

yes, the way that we say that is, we use, I feel, statements instead of you did this.

Gareth Michael: 43:04

I think sometimes it moves so quickly that it's something we have to circle back to.

Kim Jewell: 43:10

Many times yes.

Gareth Michael: 43:13

But I think it's avoiding the personal attacks when possible and trying not to add any fuel to the fire, basically because it's a very specific reason to why you're bringing the confrontation conversation up to start with. All you can do is to make sure that you're not the person engaging in the personal attacks. I understand that you do not have control whether the other person wants to make it personal or find ways to shut the conversation down, but when this and when either party starts making a personal, the conversation is technically over. Yes, because at that stage boundaries have been crossed. It doesn't get better from here. That's where we need do need to circle back and come back to it. That does not mean giving up on the concept of having the conversation, but it's knowing when to draw the line of going. Okay, let's take a breath and come back to what our common goal is and what we both want out of this for each other and for growth.

Kim Jewell: 44:04

Yeah, and I think the other thing is if we keep in mind whenever that we are having a confrontation or we're speaking with anyone to try and stay that solution focused. So solution doesn't mean that we're going to be best friends forever. So solution doesn't mean that we're going to be best friends forever. Solution focus means I have been able to express my feelings in a healthy way and state what is important for me, and I've been able to listen to what's important for the other person and given them space to state what they needed in a healthy way and then find a common ground that you guys can meet on. That is solution focused, like I know some people would say. Well, we should be saying how can we make sure that this never happens again? Well, duh, that's going to happen again. Are you human? Like to say how can we make sure this isn't going to happen again is just a futile statement, because we are humans. We're fallible, we're going to make mistakes, but what we want to do is be able to respect each other.

Gareth Michael: 45:12

For when confrontation inevitably comes back around? How do we be more efficient in our communication with one another about what's going on mentally and emotionally to meet the common goal, but to say that we're never going to have another argument or a confrontation or arrive, so to speak?

Kim Jewell: 45:28

it's just not true it's just la la land that's why there's.

Gareth Michael: 45:32

So there's always something more to learn about ourselves individually and together as a couple, regardless of the circumstances in which the confrontation needs to exist in that moment. So I think that summarizes it, though, honestly, is that confrontation is not if it happens, it's when it's going to happen.

Kim Jewell: 45:48

Absolutely, and I think it is about understanding that that is part of this journey, that you can try to avoid it, but it's going to find a way to find its way to come up in your life, no matter what you do. So the more that we get comfortable and this is the saying that I used to say, getting comfortable in the uncomfortable, becoming certain in the uncertainty the more that we're able to do that we can go. Okay, there's something for me in this. Can I find whatever that little gem is?

Gareth Michael: 46:21

I couldn't agree more.

Kim Jewell: 46:25

Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, then you might want to check out our online community. We built it to offer you the comfort of having a supportive community by your side, no matter where life takes you. Connect with like-minded individuals through our app. Navigate each step of the journey together with us by joining our Gareth Michael community. Here are a few of the things you're going to get. You'll get exclusive real-time access to live recording and events. Advanced access to each new episode. The opportunity to ask questions directly of Gareth and I Input into what topics we cover in the show. Access to exclusive content not available anywhere else. To learn more about our community, please go to wwwgarethmichaelcom. Thanks again, and I hope you guys are having a lovely week.