Kim Jewell: 0:12

Welcome back to the Practical Spirituality Podcast. We are so excited to have you on this journey with us, where we explore all elements of mind, body, emotions and soul to the lens of everyday life.

Gareth Michael: 0:45

We are also excited to have you here today.

Kim Jewell: 0:50

It's a very interesting topic because it's very much misunderstood so many of the times. So I think it's going to be a great topic for us.

Gareth Michael: 0:57

I think, the different areas we're going to actually dive into. It is because it is surrendering control, that is surrendering expectations, sometimes even surrendering in relationships, surrendering in mind, body, emotions, soul. So I do feel, no matter who you are or where you are on your journey, this applies to each person in some way, shape or form. So I think it'll just be an interesting conversation, which I'm sure will have a few interesting insights along the way.

Kim Jewell: 1:19

Okay, I think it's going to be good.

Gareth Michael: 1:22

For you, what does surrendering in life mean?

Kim Jewell: 1:25

I was afraid you were going to ask me that I have mixed feelings about surrendering in life. To me, when I first heard the word that I needed to surrender, I thought that meant giving up, and I fought that tooth and nail because I feel like I had spent my entire life fighting to stay alive, fighting to get through from one situation to the next. And when people said you just need to surrender, I was like right, and then what? So it was a very conflicting time for me until I started to understand, when I could understand the concept of letting go of the control and the outcomes, even though that felt impossible.

Kim Jewell: 2:11

I can remember early on in sobriety in that first apartment, that I had sitting there night after night going well, how do you let go of the outcome? How do you do that? How can you not be invested in what the outcome is? And because, of course, back then I had no concept of being present, I was moving and living from one outcome to the next. So when I found out that by surrendering it didn't mean giving up, it just simply meant stop trying to control it all. That's what it meant to me Stop trying to control every aspect of it, because I don't have the big picture, I only have a very small window of the picture, and so when I got that, I was like oh, and things started to shift when I was able to understand that.

Gareth Michael: 3:02

But it's something that is forever meant to be challenging throughout life, correct? It's not something that it's tick the box or suddenly you have that lightened moment and then you never find yourself in a place of being controlling again. It's something that I think appears in a lot of different ways, but it actually comes back to as we've talked with so many times on this show is building the awareness on why these things pop up in us to start with and what it's there to actually teach us.

Kim Jewell: 3:28

I think that's true, but I think sometimes, even when we are looking at that, that can still be confusing. What I didn't realize is, the more that I tried to control things, the more that I had my fingers in the pie, the bigger the mess usually was. So when I started to realize that I just needed to let go of the reins a bit and let life start to take me in a certain direction and be willing to be flexible with that, that things started to let go. Does it mean that I'm always in that flow? No, I know the challenge that when my marriage was over, the challenge of letting go of that and I can tell you, part of hanging on for as long as I did is I didn't want to be the bad guy, because I've been painted the bad guy so many times in my life. But eventually I had to surrender and go. Okay, if I'm going to be the bad guy, then I'm going to be the bad guy.

Gareth Michael: 4:23

But even something you mentioned there is saying about being in the flow. I think I've had so many conversations, even over the years, about that. It's that we have this perception that we're either in the flow or not in the flow, whereas, as we've talked about, we're always in the flow. It's just sometimes we don't understand where that flow is taking us on our path.

Kim Jewell: 4:39

Yeah, and I would say, like I used to say lots of times, other people might be in the flow of life, but I was like the salmon swimming upstream constantly, mainly because if you suggested that's the way I should go, that must mean I should go in the other direction. That's the right, just close the way.

Gareth Michael: 4:57

I was yeah.

Kim Jewell: 5:01

And still can be.

Kim Jewell: 5:03

I think it was a very huge thing for me and we talked about my story before in another episode.

Kim Jewell: 5:10

I don't think for many, many, many years did I ever really understand the impact of some of the childhood trauma that I went through that that had on this whole idea of surrender. I had a great example, because I can remember when my mother got very ill with that pregnancy, they were wanting her to abort that child and remembering that my mother was very irish catholic and very orthodox in that she was like, if god wants to take this child, it's up to god, it's not up to me. And I was like, if nine children at home, hello, what about us, you know? But she could let go. She surrendered to whatever it was meant to be. She didn't die, neither did the baby, but that's not always the case, and I as a child didn't know that, you know, and so it made a lasting impression on me and how I started to view life, and I think that was the moment I grabbed the reins and said I need to hold this tight and I don't trust god the same way mom does.

Gareth Michael: 6:13

Basically, yeah, even when talking about surrendering I don't know what a number of episodes now we've kind of broached this in the sense of there's a lot of those throwaway comments, as if it's easy, you know, just surrender, just let it go, just put the drink down, just let go of that or forgive somebody. And we both know that it's never been that simple. I don't think it ever will be that simple, because that is part of the journey to actually have to go through that mind, body, emotion. So so in my experience, when it actually comes to surrendering, is that you can read as many books as you want on it. You can read the entire internet if you want.

Gareth Michael: 6:51

You don't have such a logical understanding of it, but to me is that the moments where I personally had to surrender or was forced into surrendering was actually because of external circumstances that, as you were mentioning, was triggering stuff in me, both mentally and emotionally, that I actually get to a point where I had to, per se, give up control.

Gareth Michael: 7:09

I want to say on what my expectations were, what I wanted the end result to be, all of those components, but I was never able to actually get there on my own unless I was putting that actually a high stress or high anxiety position where life was like, well, you can do it our way or you can do it your way. We know which one we're recommending for you, and is that in me actually quote-unquote? Surrendering is when I actually got introduced to michael many years ago now. For that moment for me, as I've talked about before, I was in a dark place, both mentally, emotionally, physically. Life was on top of me in that moment in time and I remember just actually having to have this release or just this sense of of a huge exhale of I just can't do this anymore in this way. It doesn't mean I was giving up on life, it was just I was giving up on the way that I was living it.

Kim Jewell: 7:55

You were giving up on living life the way that you were living it. And see my, my thought was, yeah, while I was over there going, I just need to give up on life period.

Gareth Michael: 8:06

But there's a big difference in that between giving up on life as I'm living it and just giving up on life but I think it's only in that moment I realized the difference, and that's when I met michael, because it wasn't necessarily life that was the problem.

Gareth Michael: 8:20

It was my traumas, it was my experiences, it was things that have happened to me which was all very real.

Gareth Michael: 8:26

This it's not saying, that's not, and I'm saying and there's so much about I didn't understand, there's so much information I didn't have access to and it was a very painful time in my life and even though everyone else looking in thought it was great or thought it was fine or sure, if everything you're taking all the boxes, for me internally it was so far from that and I think that's also something that we can all relate to. So, suddenly, even surrendering those expectations of the life that you've been taught to lead your entire life of the path you shouldn't go down and starting to do things that a little bit differently for you, that's a whole other thing in surrendering itself, of even surrendering not only who you're expected to be, but who other people have been expecting you to be your entire life also to suit their needs well, I think that's a very important point, because we talk about giving up the expectations and how life should be, but really we are taught from a very young age.

Kim Jewell: 9:15

Other people have expectations on how we behave, how we respond, what we're going to do when we go to school, how we're going to complete school, what we should do after we finish school. I know that when I grew up it was a very big deal. Of course you're going to go to uni and then you get married, then you're going to have three kids and then you're going to do which never fit into the realm of how I saw things, but and I don't think it's that much different today we have we have been taught that it should be a certain way, depending on our caregivers, you know, because it goes the other way with people who've grown up in really chaotic households.

Kim Jewell: 9:51

They grow up expecting everything to always be chaotic or things to always go wrong, instead of thinking that's their normal yeah, that's their normal, and so it doesn't matter what side of the fence we're on when it comes to whether how much trauma you have or not have. There are a lot of expectations by the time we start to think independently, so of course it's very hard to go. Oh, maybe I'll just branch out and do it differently, because that's not the norm, is it?

Gareth Michael: 10:18

not an option yeah but that's what I was saying about how there's external factors that actually put us in certain positions internally that we never would have put ourselves in on our own, because we would never choose to stress, test ourselves in mind, body, emotions, because, as you've mentioned many times before, we're often all in survival mode of just trying to get through the day, trying not to cause any more distress or anxiety, or just trying to make it from one day to the next. But it's only when those external factors I feel are a player or sometimes corner us, it does actually force our hand and look at ourselves in mind, body, emotions, look at our relationship with control or expectations, our relationships, but even our connection with life, I want to say in general. So that's where I think it's interesting of when it comes to surrendering. It's part of us outgrowing, the part of us of who we were taught to be for a period of time, which I think is really interesting, because when you surrender, you're actually opening up a new chapter of your own life, but you're taking all the experience from the previous time with you moving forward, so you're gaining a lot.

Gareth Michael: 11:20

And that's not really ever talked about when it comes to surrendering because, as we talked about earlier. It's just just surrender, just let it all go. But to me there's so much more in that combination of mind, body, emotions, of actually having to work with one another and it takes a lot of pressure to create a diamond, and I think that's kind of the process of actually being allowed to surrender or even being able to I think those are some really good points that you bring up, and the reason I think that is because, as you were telling that, I'm thinking about the time right before I got sober when I decided to end my life scuba diving.

Kim Jewell: 11:52

And you know, I didn't set out on the trip to end my life, but there was conversation that happened on the boat and it was the tipping point and I remembered thinking I just can't, I just can't do this anymore, I cannot do this anymore. I didn't think I couldn't do it like this anymore. I just thought, full stop, I can't do it. And, of course, best laid plans. You know, as I passed out, my dive buddy found me, brought me back to the boat. He was quite angry and what surrender looked like for me in that moment was sitting there on the front of that boat. He was so angry at me he had had to revive me. He'd thrown that beer at me and I was sitting there. Just the thoughts that were running through my head at that time was simply, I can't even kill myself properly, I can't do anything properly. And that's when I had the voice say you know, maybe, just maybe, if you've given up the drugs and alcohol long enough, you'll figure out why your life's so messed up and Knew the gig was up.

Kim Jewell: 12:50

In that moment it was like, okay, I can't kill myself, so I have no choice. I've got to figure out how to live Now. That does not really sound like our idea of surrender. Yeah, but it was surrender, like I had to go. I can't keep trying to avoid it anymore. I can't escape this. As much as I have tried, I have tried every which way around. It's not that I recommend that for anybody. That was just part of my story. But that was a surrender moment. And Was it joyous and happy and carefree? No, you know, it was followed by three days of huge amounts of emotion, of so much release from all the trauma that led to that moment. Did I go? Oh wow, look at me, little miss enlightened person, now that I've surrendered, killing myself.

Gareth Michael: 13:46

Interesting choice of words.

Kim Jewell: 13:50

But I mean, I think it's important to say that, because People think that we're gonna surrender and be in this place of peace, but that's not always the case, is it?

Gareth Michael: 14:00

no, when you surrender, there is a sense of relief, followed by a lot more confusion.

Kim Jewell: 14:06

Yes, I would agree with that.

Gareth Michael: 14:08

But this is where I think it's even surrendering control. In that sense it's that I don't believe you can ever a hundred percent surrender control, because I just don't think it's actually realistic Expectation even have, because I think it's more about redefining certain Expectations or definitions, or reviewing the relationship with yourself, or even Surrendering sometimes the toxic relationship we have with ourselves internally. I think there's such a mix of different things go on in that moment. But saying that we 100% give up control, which equals surrender, I just never see that as actually ever being a hundred percent realistic. And because I think once I surrendered and Michael came into my life, the ways in which I probably controlled actually changed.

Kim Jewell: 14:50

Yeah, I agree.

Gareth Michael: 14:51

Yes, I see, understand that there was a shift, there was a change in perspective, expectation, there was a release and there was a relief. But to say that there was oh, I was a hundred percent not controlling anymore, that would be a lie.

Kim Jewell: 15:05

I would say the same as for when I got sober, you know, and I think For me I I truthfully believed back then that all I was gonna have to do is get sober, yeah, and life would get a lot easier. And what I found was life got a whole lot more confusing and a whole lot more Typical on so many different levels. Yeah because getting sober pointed out to me how few life skills I actually had, and the ability to interact with life on life's terms was like no at that point.

Gareth Michael: 15:38

But I think that's some interesting points, because in that process of actually surrendering, you actually get so much exposure, more to yourself, from that honest relationship with yourself which brings up so many more things for you to have to explore. The reason why I choose that language is because once you build an Awareness on these areas that you have to explore, you count to ignore it and learn. Life Continues to bring it up in your face time and time again. So therefore, the journey has been paved for you.

Kim Jewell: 16:04

I totally agree, and one of the sayings that I say to people all the time we can't change what you're not aware of, but once you're aware, you don't get to put the sheets back up over your eyes.

Kim Jewell: 16:14

You don't get to turn around and go up. Excuse me, I really don't want to know that. Now I know it, I can't walk away from it. I can try and deny it, but once I'm aware of it, it's like that niggling sound in the back of your head. So, yes, I agree with that.

Kim Jewell: 16:29

Yeah, I just want to say one more thing about surrendering expectations.

Kim Jewell: 16:33

You know we talk about surrendering to the expectations that we've been brought up with and or how things should be. Yeah, I have a saying and this changed so much for me when I understood this. Every single time I should something, I was creating shame inside of me because what I was saying is things weren't the way they were supposed to be, and that meant that I wasn't trusting life and I wasn't present in this life, and I think that I know better than how the bigger picture of life should be. So I'd say this to people all the time whenever, when I first heard that should is a shaming word, it was like oh, oh, I've had enough shame, I don't need to keep shaming myself, and it made it a little bit easier to let go of some of the expectations that I had picked up along the way. So that was one of the ways that I surrendered to that, because I wanted to be kinder to myself and I didn't want any more shame. I'd had had enough of it.

Gareth Michael: 17:37

Because I think, even when it comes to expectations, and as you said, that we even have a hard for a lifetime and they do still travel with us for a lifetime, even when we still have an awareness of them.

Gareth Michael: 17:47

But I think what's always been interesting about doing the journey, and especially in the spiritual component of looking back to as a spiritual energy, why would I have chosen these expectations even be a part of my life?

Gareth Michael: 17:59

And I'm saying, regardless of which component of our lives you look at, you think zooming out of our perspective in some ways I'm going to actually ask those questions allows us to begin exploring the lessons and the growth you come with it. But, as you said, it's even that example that you use of actually exploring our relationship with shame, or exploring our relationships right across the board with anything in mind, body, emotions, but then also of the different experiences that we would have been exposed to because of these expectations and also what does this mean for our future relationships? Moving forward Then, even moving deeper into expectations, is even how those begin to show up in our relationships and how that takes to a whole new level of actually being able to surrender in relationships in some ways, which we have to be careful with our language, because obviously surrendering in relationships could mean a number of different things depending on who's listening. So what does it mean to you to begin surrendering in relationships?

Kim Jewell: 18:52

I think for me, when we talk about surrendering in relationship, it's about recognizing that no other person completes me, that no other person is there to take care of me, to provide everything for all of my needs. I think surrendering in relationship simply means I am on this journey, they are on this journey and I don't have the right to say you should be like this or you should do it my way, or you know this, my way, or the highway kind of thing. So that's what I think surrendering in relationship means. It means allowing the other person to be on their journey and to be who they are and to have the ability to hold space if they're growing in an area that you've already grown, or allowing them to support you if you're growing in an area that they've already grown. And I know saying that that's all great theory, but that is the goal. It's like I can't change anybody but me and that's the surrender in relationship to me.

Gareth Michael: 20:02

And I think, even when it comes to relationship, I do feel we can even bring friendships into that, because relationships are not just necessarily a partner, so to speak, because no matter what the friendship or relationship is, there's always so much growth attached to it, regardless of what it means for each person on that journey. I don't think I said enough that relationships and friendships, they're meant to be challenging at times, they're meant to be unpredictable, because that's how we end up being triggered within ourselves and actually to go understand more about ourselves and more about understanding the other person also and them understanding themselves. But that's where we've often, always, talked about communication being such an important thing in mind, body, emotions and each party being willing to go work on themselves as individuals, but also then communicating with each other, if they choose to, about what they're learning, about this journey they're on with one another. I mean that does apply both, as I said, with your partner and then also with your friendships around you that you spend week to week with.

Kim Jewell: 20:55

And I think what's important about that is when we're in whatever kind of relationship it is friendships, colleagues, work, family, romantic relationships if we are triggered they didn't do it to us, because that's what we're taught. We're taught oh, he did, he triggered me or she triggered me, and we don't necessarily when we can look at that and we can go well, wait a minute. Basically, this little thing that has happened has brought the spotlight on something I need to look at within myself, and so, if we can start to look at it like that, there is where your surrender comes, because you don't have to blame anybody else anymore. You can go oh well, I choose to stay in this relationship or I can walk away.

Gareth Michael: 21:43

Even when it comes to surrendering in relationships or just, as you were mentioning, bringing it back to yourself, there's a whole component of surrendering, trusting in life, that life has a plan for you. There's a reason why these things are actually occurring and I think it's that I can't begin to describe once that actually clicks within your system, in my body emotions. The difference that actually makes within how you live day to day is absolutely phenomenal. Now, don't get me wrong. There's still moments of wanting to have control, there's still expectations, there's still tricky moments in relationships, there's still suffering, there's still anxieties, there's all still elements of what it means to be human. But at the same time is that I think the difference is you're not fighting those realities. You're actually surrounding to the reality that they exist and there's a reason behind it.

Gareth Michael: 22:31

But yet I just don't understand it yet, and I think understanding that that is the journey, is to me surrendering, if you want to call it, to a higher power, surrendering to my journey or to my energy of yes, I'm not in the driving seat of this, I didn't make these choices on a human level, but they are unfolding in front of me now on a human level, whether I like it or not, and I do know better now to actually have the tools and to know what begins, searching within myself and externally for answers.

Gareth Michael: 22:59

Because, as we've talked about before in this podcast, we're not the first individualist to go through these set of experiences and we're definitely not the last. We do need a village of people at times to get through certain elements of our life, depending on what we're going through. But I've learned to take so much comfort out of these realities but at the same time, it's still an unknown journey that's still unfolding in front of each of us, regardless of where we are on it. But I think, as you mentioned before, beginning to learn to actually change those perceptions and to continue to actually explore yourself in mind, body, emotions, soul that's a huge part of for me at this stage is actually surrendering and trusting in life. But it actually took life to take me to a breaking point to actually get that awareness of it should be this way and not how, the expectation of how I think it should be.

Kim Jewell: 23:45

It's just that a mouthful is what you've said and I agree with that, and so one of the ways that I can come back and talk about that is early in the piece. I have an older brother that used to say to me all the time, don't sweat the small stuff, and it's all small stuff. I used to be infuriated by that comment. It's like, of course I have to sweat the small stuff, but I was into all of this, trying to present a certain way, trying to be a certain thing. So when I've got clean and sober and we start talking about a higher power, you guys have heard me say you've heard me say, Gareth, I've always had a very deep connection with my higher power throughout my whole life, Even through my addiction. It might have gotten really dulled and in the distance, but it was still there. It was always there and so. But surrendering to that was a completely different story, because I didn't think I would be caught. And one of the things that I want to say and I remember when this discussion came up early on in the piece about trusting my higher power trusting or surrendering, whichever way you want to look at it the comment I made was you're asking me to walk between two high-rise buildings on a wire without a safety net because the wind is blowing, Like that's what it felt like.

Kim Jewell: 25:03

It felt like I really and truthfully could not do it and some of the biggest points of change and surrender in me was taking that leap of faith, following somebody and, like you said, takes a village, following somebody who'd already done this process and trusting that okay, well, they've done this process, they're okay.

Kim Jewell: 25:26

I need to at least have a go and if not, I can always revert back to what I knew before. But each time I did it and as harrowing as it felt, I did start to believe oh, you know what, somebody has my back. I think even when you and I met, it was you who pointed out to me how many times I dodged a bullet and here I sit and I remember thinking, oh yeah, I never thought about that. I did kind of walk through a little bit and here I sit and it was great for you to say it to me because then I could go, maybe I could trust that a little bit more where, if you don't have the people there helping and sometimes it's because the suffering and the emotions and the trauma from the past seems so big, so overwhelming, so all consuming, that you can't see beyond that.

Gareth Michael: 26:18

And this is why it's that, when it actually comes to surrendering, it's that we're actually not built to be able to surrender 100% of that control or that expectation or those relationships, or to completely give it up, because that's not part of the journey. Because if we were able to completely surrender in every area of our life, where would the growth be?

Kim Jewell: 26:38

Exactly, exactly.

Gareth Michael: 26:40

That's a small but mighty point, but I'm saying there's elements of it where anytime we did completely surrender, as we talked about, it, wasn't necessarily our choice.

Gareth Michael: 26:48

It was something that actually happened to us because we were ready for the next chapter or whatever that was to be in any of those areas of our lives. We actually have always the right amount of control on a certain area of your lives according to where we're meant to be right now, and I guess having the awareness of that means that just our relationship with control and with expectations and with our relationships just continue to move and change throughout life. But so does a lot of things. And I think just letting go of that expectation and now having the knowledge that it's never going to be zero, I remember just having a sigh of relief of okay, so when I do have those moments of control or expectations creeping or the challenges in my relationships with people around me, that is completely normal. But, as we've talked about so many times in this show, when have we ever been taught any of this? Because we always get that feeling that we're doing life wrong?

Kim Jewell: 27:35

We do get that feeling and we haven't been taught that so many people. I don't know, maybe it's changing more today, I'm not sure, but I don't like to think so. Because there again, if we knew that in the beginning, where would the growth be? So we're not taught it. We all kind of run through and hit our head against the wall a few times before we start to understand any of these concepts. But I think it's also.

Kim Jewell: 28:01

We talk about having that faith, but then when we talk about this next point that we are going to talk about and I really want to understand it better, because it's something that I've never really been able to do you know the resistance to pain and to suffering, so we're offering it up. I've just never been good at that. I'm going to be honest about that. I've just never been good about it. I don't necessarily know how to do it, except for to understand that. Okay, here we are again going through something else and there's got to be something at the other side of this. That's about the best I can give you on that one.

Gareth Michael: 28:38

Yeah, when it comes to suffering, it's like pick a lane. There's 100 different ways, if not a million different ways. It's different for every person and it can happen to my body, emotions, soul and each of those. There's a million ways to suffer. I think everyone's had so many different exposures in their given lifetime to begin to explore it. And the famous question that we've all asked are we often hear from one another is why am I going through this? Or what did I do to deserve this and all of these? But I actually feel are valid questions because we are going through many experiences through your life that no one is actually able to explain to us why. And even when they do, or even in that off chance that someday someone is able to explain why, it still doesn't take away from the suffering itself and the trauma that that often has caused me to be with us to the day we die. Can you actually get to a place of surrendering to the?

Kim Jewell: 29:35

suffering. I think one of the points that we made is surrendering to the resistance of it. So I've had the privilege of sitting with a few people who have been very ill and then have passed away. There's something that happens when that is happening for people. I don't understand it, I've not gone through it, I've only witnessed it in others. But it is a surrendering of the resistance. There is a level of acceptance that so I'm just going to talk about my little brother, for example there was a level of acceptance that what was happening for him was very real, that this was going to end his life and that he had come to terms with the fact that that was going to end his life and that every single moment that he was here he wanted to embrace life and not focus on the suffering. And I think that's kind of what it means.

Kim Jewell: 30:32

But I personally haven't had to go through that sort of thing myself, just with somebody. I know that I'm the world's worst patient these days. I used to have a high threshold for pain. Now I have a very low threshold for pain. So it is, I think, about surrendering to the resistance of. I always come back to acceptance. We think it should be something other than it is, instead of acknowledging that it is what it is? And how do we make the best of what is?

Gareth Michael: 31:02

But even when we Google it to that place, it doesn't stop off from the pain, from stopping depending on what the suffering that we're going through. And I think that's also an important point, because I feel like sometimes, when we talk about the surrender into suffering, it's all great in theory, until you're the one suffering.

Gareth Michael: 31:17

Exactly, exactly, because how many times have we been prepared for life, or studied all these books or consumed so much information? But then, when life throws you into it, it gets all thrown out the window, because you're just there with your own suffering.

Kim Jewell: 31:30

Right out the window, Like right out the window in a nanosecond, I think. So I think my head goes off to so many people that live with the level of pain day to day and that do have that ability to accept what is and choose to keep living instead of resisting what it is. It doesn't mean they've given up trying to get well. It just means they're living in the acceptance of what is.

Gareth Michael: 32:00

And especially when any of us are in that deep level of suffering, is sometimes that actually informational words aren't necessary or needed. And often I find when I've went through certain elements of experiences or suffering in my own life or myself and Michael have been in the presence of other people that have been, it's actually been quite heartwarming at times to actually see in those moments Michael doesn't actually say a lot, he's just with them in the present moment, ensuring the experience with them in some ways, because no words are actually going to make any difference.

Kim Jewell: 32:28

Exactly, exactly. I agree with that. I think one of the tricks about when we talk about surrendering to suffering or the resistance to pain is the finding the meaning. So if we can find meaning in whatever it is that's going on, that's when it might take the burden of it a little bit off. We're not saying it's going to relieve it completely, but if there is a meaning to why this is happening, then it makes it a little bit easier to walk that path. And so what I when I mean when I say finding the meaning?

Kim Jewell: 33:02

I walk through that journey with my brother and I suffered quite a bit with him because I didn't want him to be leaving the planet and I didn't understand why. And it wasn't until many, many, many years later that I was like, oh my gosh, I learned so much in that three year period. It didn't happen. While I was going through the process with him it didn't happen was going through the grieving process. It wasn't till many years later. And I think All the people that I've worked with they would say the same thing if they went through physical suffering. They didn't get it at the time, but later down the track they had a whole new understanding of what meaning that had for them and how they move forward with it afterwards.

Gareth Michael: 33:49

I've only seen a time to say, as you mentioned, your brother, the people who get the meaning is in that moment when they're going through the suffering is because they're no longer going to be here, and that's why they receive it in that moment during their suffering, because that is what's meant for them In that moment time before they leave the planet. But I think, for majority of people, as you mentioned, it often takes years upon years, if not decades, before we even able to allow ourselves to explore what the meaning is behind the purpose behind it, because we do have such a mental emotional journey to often do with the experiences that we've had. So, that is, we're being actually very kind to ourselves and the self love and self compassion towards what we're going through become such a key part of our journey in life.

Kim Jewell: 34:32

And one of the other things I really want to bring up in this, because this is really a pondered this so many times. So the very first time I pondered I had a family member that had cerebral palsy and quiet, a few medical conditions, and watch their journey, because I can only say, watch their journey, didn't live it, watched it. And then somebody else who has something very similar and the difference between the two people walking that journey, you often go well, why is this person out there excelling and Living their life and inspiring others? And this person seemed trapped in it, and so that is one of the things that has always caught my attention about this, and I would. I can only assume their journeys were meant to be different for their own life purposes, but it's not about comparing. It's about recognizing that Each person comes to that place and the time that they're meant to come to that place, and for us not to be judging ourselves or anyone else because of where they're at on their journey.

Kim Jewell: 35:36

So I guess, in conclusion, gareth, one of the things that I would say as this is something throughout the years that I really struggle with in the beginning that it is not about giving up our power.

Kim Jewell: 35:49

It's not about giving up our identity. It's not about saying I'm just gonna let go and life take me where we're going. It's more about A journey of acceptance with what is and what life is here to show us. And the sooner that we can come to that place of acceptance, the easier it is to surrender and trust life Flow or life's journey, and things tend to move more smoothly as we do that. Now. Little caveat here I've been on this journey for quite a while, as we all know, and it's probably only been in the last few short years I'll put it like that that I have found myself getting to that level of acceptance where I am trusting the journey. So it's not something that, if you are new to working on yourself, if you are new to the spiritual journey, it's not something that a light bulb is gonna go on and you're gonna be at peace with whatever shows up in your life at any moment. It's usually part of the journey to get there and we're constantly being challenged with it.

Gareth Michael: 36:53

I just think the interesting thing when it comes to surrendering, or even in acceptance, is that Even when our journeys do get us to a place of being able to surrender to something let it be control or expectation or relationships to suffering, accepting those things, the moment we exhale we inhale a new set of expectations, control, new level of suffering, I'm saying, but yet we take, as I mentioned earlier, we take all of the experience with us that we've had throughout this life on those understandings, and I think these different elements of our lives will continue to be recycled for the right reasons in order to allow us to grow. But that's where that wisdom and knowledge becomes so important, of understanding that there is a reason behind it and why it does need to exist. But it doesn't stop it from occurring in any of our lives because, the end of the day, we're all human.

Kim Jewell: 37:41

I would agree hundred percent and, as you were just saying, it tends to open us up more to a little bit more grace and a little bit more humility, and the more that that happens the next time around it's like, oh, I understand what's going on here and it becomes just that little bit easier to walk through the next challenge. Thanks so much for listening. We hope you enjoyed this episode. If you would like to explore these topics more with us, please go to wwwpatreoncom. Forward slash practical spirituality podcast. Not only will that help us keep producing these shows, but you'll also get advanced access to each new episode. The opportunity to ask questions directly of gareth and I input into what topics we will cover on the show. Access to exclusive content not available anywhere else. See you over on Patreon.