Speaker 1: 0:12

Welcome back to the Practical Spirituality Podcast. We are so excited to have you on this journey with us, where we explore all elements of mind, body, emotions and soul through the lens of everyday life. On this week's episode, we begin the journey of exploring the multi-faceted world of people pleasing. Hello Kim, hello Gareth, how are you? I'm doing good. How are you?

Speaker 2: 0:36

doing. I'm okay, it's been a long day.

Speaker 1: 0:41

Huh, it's been a long day?

Speaker 2: 0:43

Yes, it has. So, out of curiosity, how do you feel about Kim's journey with addiction after last week being put out into the world?

Speaker 1: 0:58

A bit vulnerable and a bit I've ignored it. Basically I'm just saying you know, you asked me. I'm telling you the truth A bit vulnerable.

Speaker 2: 1:13

Which I guess is to be expected, but I know it's had a major impact on the thousands of people listening from any of the feedback I've had, so I just want to thank you again for sharing your journey.

Speaker 1: 1:23

Thank you for having me put it out there.

Speaker 2: 1:26

For this week's episode. The subject we've landed on is people pleasing and, to my surprise, actually this is on our list of subjects that we wanted to pull from, and even in the brief few minutes, even before jumping on, I was just actually looking around to see what was out there and it's kind of a believe it or not. It's a trending subject which I didn't really expect to see A lot of articles, a lot of things in social media about it.

Speaker 2: 1:50

I know people pleasing, as we both know has been around a very long time, so I thought it would be interesting to maybe talk about it this evening and see where we get to. But I also know that some of the definitions are some of the conclusions or reasons why that we briefly talked about before. Kimberly Jean-Gilles kind of seen red.

Speaker 1: 2:08

Yes, I did, yes, I did.

Speaker 2: 2:12

The definition, which is quite a simplified version of it. A people pleaser is someone who has an emotional need to please others, often at the expense of his or her own needs and desires.

Speaker 1: 2:23

Thoughts. Well, you know that I have lots of thoughts on this subject. Just a few, so where would you like me to start? So I think one of the first things I want to say is people think that people pleasing is an easy topic, that it's easily defined. But one of the things that we have learned through the work that we've done, that, without going all technical on you that they changed the fight flight free response a few years back to fight flight freeze and fawn Now, when I first heard this, I thought what are they going on about that?

Speaker 1: 2:56

But what they meant by that is what they discovered is, in an environment where children are not safe and they're being told that they're their love, but they're not safe, then what they do as a survival technique is to make sure they meet the needs of somebody else in order to keep their body alive, and so it's one of the very first things that can happen for some people. That kind of takes the oh, just say no away from it, because it changes the neural pathway, because kids are in survival mode and so they're trying to find a way to stay alive in the height of whatever is going on around them. And so I like the simplified version, because it fits the same definition for people pleasing as a way to get self-esteem and people pleasing as a way of survival.

Speaker 2: 3:52

Yeah, we both appreciate any articles that are out there in the sense of anything that builds awareness about actually exploring ourselves can be beneficial. There's no doubt about that. But I know on many episodes before we've also talked about simple definitions or greats straight to the point, easy to process new perspective. But then where you and I have got frustrated in the past, shall we say, is when the solution, so to speak, of how to solve some of these realities or problems or traumas is also already simplified and we'll just do this and just say no, and just that doesn't help at all.

Speaker 1: 4:26

No, it doesn't help at all because it sets up that you're already thinking there's something wrong with you. That's why you're so busy trying to keep everybody else happy. And so then if you feel like, oh, I should just be able to say no, like I've been working on people pleasing for 20 years, when you and I first started working together and first time you said you have to say no, all week felt like someone had just taken the air out of my lungs completely and I wasn't going to be able to breathe.

Speaker 2: 4:53

I remember it clearly.

Speaker 1: 4:55

So you know, and that's 20 years into working on myself, 20 something years of working on myself and I had been addressing this, and so that is when we start to understand. You know, yep, it's, we all do it on some level, like we all do, whether we have the traumas or whether we don't have the traumas. You know, society kind of does lend to us, keeping everybody else happy can we right?

Speaker 2: 5:20

but just to be clear that, can we actually read out, kim? Some of the Sentences are one liners that are actually quite frustrating in the sense of an even talk about a little bit. Why is it? There's probably a different angle and we will talk about this subject in more detail on this episode also, but I guess even I'll just say one as an example here that causes the motivations of people pleasing. One of them was society rewards quote-unquote nice people pleasing behavior, especially in women and girls. Now, even before you and I jumped on, I knew Kim was gonna respond in a certain way and I agree I was actually kind of surprised that that was there.

Speaker 1: 6:01

I could. You know, condescending is the only thing I can say to that statement and Even before we got on, when I had a look at the sheet, you know, as you saw, I went from zero to ten and you know, point oh seventh of a millisecond.

Speaker 2: 6:15

Thank you, mr Zero.

Speaker 1: 6:22

Because that just pissed me off. Because men, people, please too. You know men have had trauma too. Yep, men have low self-esteem and men want to be like too. It's just really yeah, but it annoys me. Well, the one the other one the causes and motivations that I thought was way over simplifies Was can originate from volatile and unstable childhood environments where reading Emotions and pleasing was a coping mechanism or survival tactic. So let me break that down. Here's my definition of that same sentence originates from traumatic childhood environments where reading emotions and pleasing was a survival tactic, because, okay, I know some of us don't like the word trauma, but volatile and unstable, it's traumatic. We're just getting long-winded about it For lack of a better way of saying it. So, yes, some of these things are over simplified and some of them they're kind of it's like with a lot of things we disagree with Gareth like there's truth in the statement.

Speaker 1: 7:23

Yeah there is truth in the statement, but that statement is made so simple. It's like the Joe blow down the streets gonna be able to pick it up, and oh you know what? All I have to do is start saying no.

Speaker 2: 7:34

I think it's the clash of realities, of definition and logic, versus life Experiencing being out in the world and actually having to work through us and I think that's where, on this podcast, we bring the two together and talk.

Speaker 1: 7:46

Yeah, yeah. So maybe one of the things we should talk about here is how do people know if they're actually people pleasing? What are some of the symptoms of this people pleasing behavior we're talking about?

Speaker 2: 7:57

I know from my experience one of the people pleasing characteristics that's out there that I definitely engaged with throughout life was going to sometimes extreme lengths to avoid conflict or disagreement and especially disappointing others. So what's your experience been with that or can you relate to it at all? Kim?

Speaker 2: 8:13

It just depends with who, so it was my actually Actually a good point, right, because I was talking to a friend of mine that we were gonna be discussing people pleasing and the response was Kim doesn't do that, she's a rebel. We're gonna love next week's episode.

Speaker 1: 8:37

Oh, yeah, it really does depend on who it was with. So it depends on who it was with, you know, for example, if it was my father yeah, I think, because I wanted to please him so bad and I had given up, because he seemed to have given up on me I went the other direction.

Speaker 2: 8:54

But if I liked you.

Speaker 1: 8:55

If I liked you on any level, I would almost cut off my arm to avoid that conflict. And so, when we look at the disagreements, I wouldn't disagree. I wouldn't disagree with anybody, just about and then disappointing others.

Speaker 1: 9:07

Oh my gosh, we don't even want to go to that one. For me, my experience with that was my whole childhood. It seemed like I was disappointing somebody and no matter how hard I tried to please them, I'd never got it right. And the very fact that I never got it right just led to more Striving of trying to get it right for them, and it just felt like such an endless cycle. I think that's where I became the rebel, because I got to a point what I'm never gonna get this right. I might as well just go the other way. One of the ones that comes to mind is that excessively Apologizing for things that aren't our fault. I can tell you that I used to start every sentence, every response, with Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. He looked at me. Sorry if it's raining, sorry it was terrible, yeah, I mean. I remember people saying to me I don't believe you because it's your knee jerk reaction to everything Sorry, sorry, sorry, never.

Speaker 2: 10:08

Just once it was sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry but even in following on from my guess, the idea of Apologizing is also our need to say yes to people or to request when really in Internally we're saying no, or even if it's that no comes afterwards, when the request has already been accepted. Then we realize when we actually get back to ourselves in some ways of I said yes, but I really meant no all I'm gonna relate that to.

Speaker 1: 10:34

In my life experiences I remember being I never knew the word no when it came to others, and so I remember when I was having problems in my marriage and we're going to marriage counseling I'm married to counselor actually asking me to come outside the room with her and going you do know you have the right to say no and I was like what are you talking about? She's like you have the right to say no and I was like I couldn't even understand what she was referencing.

Speaker 1: 11:03

Yeah and I remember being so baffled by that statement that I was like no, I don't know that I have the right to say no, this is my husband, this is my marriage. What are you talking about?

Speaker 2: 11:15

Since when yeah?

Speaker 2: 11:20

right but we're also briefly talking that because I asked you before we hit record Do you actually remember the first person you actually said no to, when normally the answer was yes, and I was saying to you is that I actually remember?

Speaker 2: 11:34

And I believe at the time it was actually my eldest brother and I remember this froze because that was the time where my mind wanted me to say yes. Every party wants to be yes, but this time I knew it was gonna be no. And when I actually said no, they look on his face and the feeling that tremored through my body was like all alarm bells were ringing of like, what did you just do? And I don't think I've ever talked about as well because but where you're and I frustrations aren't actually reading some of these articles or definitions is that they make a sound like such a breeze and they don't talk about the rush that goes through your system of actually you trying to change what you've known your entire life, which to be a people pleaser and a yes person. It just goes against every fiber of our beings in that moment.

Speaker 1: 12:16

It absolutely does. I remember the first time I said no to somebody that I really cared about, I Truthfully felt like I was going to die, and so this is why I got so upset about the generalization of some of it and not saying that it was also a trauma response, because I couldn't breathe the first time I said it. And then that rush that you're talking about, the fear that's coursing through my body, that my heart pounding out of my chest, me thinking that's it, they're out of here and I'm on my own again.

Speaker 1: 12:48

It was awful. It was awful.

Speaker 2: 12:50

Just waiting for the punishment from the person for the punishment.

Speaker 1: 12:54

Yeah, and so you know, like Gareth and I both get, just, we both laughed at the beginning when we were like just say no. And we're saying that very glibly. And the reason I say it very glibly is because these people that Don't understand how deep some of this can run at times, make that glib save. Oh, just say no. It's like if I could have said no, don't you think I would have done that 50 years ago? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 13:24

So just even going back to something you'd mentioned earlier, is that it's still an ongoing journey for both of us, in that I'm the people placing any I know it. As you mentioned, it really does depend on who with, and we can be seriously aware of it when there's an action out in our own systems because of us studying ourselves in the self-reflection and going into that detail. But I remember when I started channeling Michael at the start. What I actually find quite fascinating is that when I had to say garrus slash Michael hybrid and I was speaking to someone, my people pleasing as garrus would sometimes come through of Michael wanting to say something and the people pleasing part of garrus was like I don't want to say that and the person could see me resisting, getting comfortable in my chair, and then even the person would get to a stage of just say it I.

Speaker 2: 14:15

Then it would come out you know what I mean, but it's funny how I could never get in the way of Michael's messages. But it was so funny at the start, especially how every part of your earth did not want to say it in case the person Disapproved or certainly valued me less or had a reaction. You get where I'm going with this.

Speaker 1: 14:32

So I don't get where you're going in my journey with Michael.

Speaker 2: 14:35

It's definitely a hundred percent challenge. My need to people please, because whether I liked it or not was irrelevant Michael was gonna deliver the message.

Speaker 1: 14:44

Hmm, I do understand that. I I understand it completely, and so anybody who's ever worked with me will know when my people pleasing comes out, because it'll be something that I want to Say or need to say that's more the statement I need to say and it will be there and I will stop and I will look up and I'll go.

Speaker 1: 15:04

So I'm just about to say something that make make you want to hit me. So I'd just like to warn you Before I would say it. Because of that very reason, because I knew I had to say it. Every part of me would never say that To someone else, but it's like if I don't say this, I'm doing a disservice to this person.

Speaker 1: 15:27

Yeah and it's taken quite a long time to get to that, so I do totally understand that. Hi there, we hope you're enjoying this week's episode. We've been so delighted to see such a fantastic response to the show and we're excited to now offer you away to get even more from the podcast. We've been building our patreon community and are now offering a range of benefits, including weekly bonus episodes, articles, early access to our regular episodes and weekly check-in polls. And here's something special we are hosting monthly live question-and-answer sessions a fantastic chance to interact directly with us and get your questions Answered. We've designed different tiers on patreon, ensuring there's something for everyone. Find your fit and join us by clicking the link in the episode description or visiting wwwpatreoncom. Forward slash practical spirituality podcast. We're excited to welcome you to our patreon community. Let's continue our journey in practical spirituality together. One of the things that I find, or found for a long time, was this this tendency to neglect my own needs for others wants and comforts.

Speaker 2: 16:50

Mm-hmm. That is something that I think most parents struggle with with their kids.

Speaker 1: 16:56

I agree.

Speaker 2: 16:56

We've known each other for quite some time now. I remember back when we first started working together. Saying no for that entire week that you'd mentioned is especially even as like. Even when your kids called Kim, you need to say no and I remember you being like even the kids. But I do think it can be very different for parents versus with your colleagues, versus with your own parents. I think the different levels of people pleasing on the ability to say yes or no changes quite a bit, as we were talking about earlier. But I know from working with you in my memory that was a big one at the time was being able to say no to your kids.

Speaker 1: 17:32

Absolutely, and I will tell you a funny part about that story is my kids have seen me work on this probably for as long as they've been alive. So, as my kids became young adults. If they needed anything from me, the phone would ring. I'd pick up the phone and the very first statement would be now, mom, you can say no, it's okay to say no, and you know what happened for me. Don't say that, because now I feel like I have to say yes, you have to double down and say yes Three times.

Speaker 2: 18:03

I have to double down.

Speaker 1: 18:04

Yeah, it was so frustrating for me, you know, because I wanted to say no and, like you said, that is that parent. I think every parent has it. But then add the emotional trauma and survival technique to it and it feels excruciating. So here's the true story. First few times I did say no, just like I was told to. I'd hang up the phone, I'd sit there for half an hour, I would call my child back. I just need you to know I love you even though I've said no. I just want you to know I still love you. And they're like I know that mom and I'm like, yeah, but I need to make sure that you still love me. Because I said no and that's a sad thing to say, but that was a true thing to say, you know, because it was so strong at that point.

Speaker 1: 18:51

And I remember I have a really dear friend in my life and I was out shopping with this person probably in the first two or three years of our friendship. So this person wanted to buy me something and I just couldn't do it. And she turned around and said you really do have a problem with receiving, don't you? And I went because in my mind, if someone bought me something. We know what that means, right? Yep, there's strings attached, so that was part of that survival tactic, and so it was so much easier to have no needs than to allow someone to meet your needs, because then you would owe them.

Speaker 1: 19:27

Okay, so I think I want to go back to some of the causes and motivations that we talked about, since we talked about some of these experiences we've already had. Yep, because some people just start to beat themselves up because they're people pleasers. They see it as a character flaw instead of really understanding, and so I think if we, you know, we already talked about some of the things that they said on here, but we haven't talked about emotional neglect, for example. This is the worst type of neglect to try and work with people with, because usually we've had a house over our head and there's been food on the table and there's a bed to sleep in, and no one got hit, no one got hurt, but I don't understand why I'm chasing around trying to get everybody else's love and approval.

Speaker 1: 20:14

And it usually comes from either emotional neglect or an emotionally unavailable caregiver, right or parent, which is most.

Speaker 2: 20:23

I want to say, that's most people, because, as we've talked about many episodes before, we've never been talked about our emotions, how to emotionally regulate, how to communicate, how to express. So it's, and it was a big step and it was probably safe to say that it applies to most people that are listening right now, or most people even on the street.

Speaker 1: 20:38

Absolutely, absolutely it does. And one of the other things that people don't understand that also hits a lot of people. So if there's any kind of say, a trauma at birth and, for whatever reason, you are separated from your mom, that baby doesn't understand that. And if there isn't an attachment period where they get to do the bonding, now there's this sense of fear of abandonment, what's that going to create? It's going to create you constantly trying to get that attachment by people pleasing.

Speaker 1: 21:09

So I find it very interesting and I had a thought this week, you know, when, during the time when my mom almost died and then she came home from the hospital and she was home, I had a memory this week of and I've often thought of this memory where I went to primary school was not very far from where we lived and there was two cotton fields in between the school and the house. And the memory that came up is the lunch bell going and me taking off through the cotton fields doing the zigzag, because of course there's cottontail snakes, a rattlesnakes in those areas, and so I'm zigzagging through the field to get home for a 10 minute period with my mom. You know, when I think about that memory I think, oh my gosh, that poor little one. You know what I went through just to get that 10 minutes because of everything going on in her life. So I find it all very interesting. And the other thing I find interesting about it I have it. I don't know, I'm pretty sure you have it.

Speaker 1: 22:11

Most of us have gone through it because of these things that happen to us. We have this innate ability to read every micro expression on somebody's face. Yep, right, like we're constantly scanning, doing that checking. It's a very interesting thing. So people find themselves with that little added bonus they might be able to start to check in on their pupil-pleasing stuff and why that started for them. There's just so much to this topic, like we've said so many times, I don't think we're going to get hugely deep into it because it's such a big topic. There's so many causes. But I think as long as we start to normalize it for some people and go, it's not quite as cut and dry as a lot of people want to make it.

Speaker 2: 22:58

I'm just building an awareness around it. I know that it is a lifelong journey of actually exploring it and does it get easier with time? You get more aware of it with time and it gets easier under certain circumstances with certain people. But I think when you said when I started to ingrained into our systems, it's just continuously going to show us new things about ourselves and also expose us to new experiences and new people for a good unbought, I think that's a reality.

Speaker 1: 23:22

So you know what, just before we move on, I want to go back to some work causes, because, as I'm sitting here, I'm going oh yeah, so let's just talk about school as a cause. So I'll go to school. We're supposed to conform to a certain routine and then now we're surrounded by a group of people that are peers that we don't really understand, and people that are doing really well in the class are getting a lot of attention. What are we going to start doing? We're going to start vying for that attention as well. So our schools set it up, our society sports. You know we think, oh, we've got to. I know so many people that go into sports because it's a way of getting mom and dad's attention. And then we have a very contentious topic of virtue signaling. You know, we don't want to be stepping out of the crowd, so we're just going to go along with the crowd. Because you know what, if I don't ruffle the water, I'll be OK.

Speaker 2: 24:16

But even in saying that, like as we use people pleasing as a way to actually climb the social ladder, you know, professional ladder, and this is what's actually used to surprise me actually working on this and questioning myself how it is ingrained in every area of a person's life, in the relationship the relationship you mentioned with your husband in your career, even if it is pleasing customers or clients in your job or even just within friendships of having to maintain them, because, as you mentioned, is that if you're available, then you're used to somebody and then they can't get rid of me, because then who else would do that for them. And so, as you said that it's such a large subject, because, if it applies to everyone, everyone has their own unique ways of looking at it, like a lot of the subjects that are out there that we've talked about in this podcast, when have we everything in reason to actually go back and question that are actually open up our eyes or build awareness around it?

Speaker 2: 25:05

That's only when we start doing that that we can actually begin to understand the different causes that actually have led us to have all these different experiences and these realities and then begin to do the journey of healing and of understanding of, maybe, how we can begin to change and evolve that. So, before we move on to, I guess, the healing process of that exploration, are there any other causes that you want to mention to the listeners that you feel are relevant?

Speaker 1: 25:31

Yeah, I think one of the other things that we haven't talked about in causes is insecurity. When we don't have that sense of self and we have that insecurity, then we have that really huge need to get the validation from somebody else, and that then just sets up that endless cycle of people pleasing that we have, and so it feels like this that, like my hamster will have problems that I talk about all the time. It's just, it's a spiral that keeps going, and so from there, what I'd really like to move into is some of these problems that we end up with.

Speaker 2: 26:02

That can be a long list of those.

Speaker 1: 26:05

How long do you have?

Speaker 2: 26:06

One of the problems that comes to mind when it comes to people pleasing is the reality of we can feel that loss of identity or the sense of self because we've just spent, as you mentioned, so much time in our lives moulding ourselves to other people, and especially with so many people that we meet in a given day, that and we don't often, as children, as even young adults, ever get that much time on our own, because a lot of us we actually fear even being on our own or don't even know how to have that time on our own. So, therefore, when you're actually taking a step back and suddenly trying to question people pleasing, question relationships of other people, and starting to do our self reflection, there is that sudden realization of loss of identity or who actually am I. I don't know if you've experienced that.

Speaker 1: 26:47

I've experienced it constantly, constantly, because, as I said, about being the chameleon. But you know, what actually really hit me more, as one of the problems caused by it is the resentment that I felt, and that resentment comes out in such subtle ways, kind of like you know, I've done all this for you and no one's ever there for me. That one, yep. So I'm sure you've experienced that one. So then there is, it's ringing a few bells.

Speaker 1: 27:16

Yeah, all the emotions, that now it's not okay to express that anxiousness, that oh no. Here's an example. I remember the first time I asked somebody for help which you know, that's like taking an arm off and the person just turned around, went. No, I remember just sitting going. What do?

Speaker 1: 27:36

you mean what? What do you mean? No, yeah, like. And my instant reaction was resentment and anger. And how mean is this person saying no to me? How can they be so mean? They're not being mean, they're just saying no. But because I didn't know how to say no.

Speaker 2: 27:54

Maybe they've placed boundaries.

Speaker 1: 27:55

Yeah, they actually had boundaries.

Speaker 2: 27:57

That's a different episode, completely, completely.

Speaker 1: 28:00

Talking about boundaries. So then you know where do you go with that.

Speaker 2: 28:06

As you mentioned earlier, there's so many ways to take this episode, so I'm sure we'll come back to it in a Patreon episode. But it's even just how people pleasing, especially when it actually enters into the intimacy within our personal relationships. It just sets a whole new level of experiences and even problems, of what that means moving forward. Yes, how do you want to add to that? Without going into too much detail?

Speaker 1: 28:31

Well, what it means is for me I was never able to express what my needs were in the relationship, ever. I did a lot of yelling and screaming, but I didn't even know what my needs were. I just didn't know. And so because for so many years, while I was doing that, I didn't know how to be authentic, because I was so busy taking care of everybody else, that lack of identity was there. And then there was this resentment because I was giving, giving, giving, giving. What I felt was giving, giving, giving, and nothing ever seemed to come my way. But even if it did, it would have hit me upside the head and I wouldn't have recognized it.

Speaker 2: 29:09

And then, but of course because of that, I think, especially as we get older, as decades pass, and the people pleasing, isn't?

Speaker 2: 29:16

we don't have an awareness of it, even as you said if it hits you over the head it still would not actually make a dent in your reality. But I think the part of the problems that come with that is the burnout. I'm feeling unappreciated, feeling used both personally and professionally and it's just exhausting. And I think when it gets to that level it's so exhausting, our way of living in that way is so unsustainable that we actually life kind of forces that change onto us by actually needing to go seek help because we're just so burnt out and I do think it's either people who are listening who even can relate to that because they've been there themselves, or there's people actually on that verge now of burning out because it's just got to a place where it's unsustainable.

Speaker 1: 29:59

So true, and you know, when we think about the world that we live in and we think about all the people that work in helping professions Because, like we said, there's eight billion people on the planet and we all have it on some form. But most people that get into helping get into helping because we're projecting what we wanted, totally unaware of it, myself included, you know, we're totally unaware. That's what was driving the motivation behind it. And where the problem comes with like you were just talking about, with the burnout and feeling unappreciated is we go in for the right reasons, then the people pleasing takes over and then we haven't got any of our needs.

Speaker 2: 30:47

We have expectations.

Speaker 1: 30:49

Expectations aren't getting met, and it just becomes exhausting.

Speaker 2: 30:53

But it becomes an ongoing journey of self-reflection because we don't have any other choice but to go inwards to actually see what's going on, or where does all of this come from?

Speaker 1: 31:02

And that in itself sets up some problems, because if those of us that had the trauma, that have spent a good deal of our time looking outward, constantly judging if we're okay by the messages that we're getting back from others, going inward is like sorry, no map for that.

Speaker 2: 31:23

But that actually is an interesting conversation because it leads us to our last point for this episode. Where do people even begin in that healing process? When it comes to people pleasing, understanding it, their traumas, as you mentioned at the start of the episode and even only a few seconds ago, kim is the expert. Where do people even start?

Speaker 1: 31:39

I think where people start is it has to start with awareness, awareness that that is what we're doing. Until we become aware that we are people pleasing or we're doing it for survival technique, we can't even begin to change, can't even begin to look at it. And so that awareness, as you said, comes in a couple different ways the burnout or the exhaustion, having to take time off, getting sick, and often when we get sick, it gives us that opportunity to start to reflect. I think I knew early, early, early on, that saying no was not possible in my world, but was too afraid to talk to anybody about it for a very, very long time. And so it wasn't until I had the awareness that things were never going to get better if I didn't find a way to start looking at this. That's when things started to change.

Speaker 2: 32:39

But I think it's also looking out in the sense of saying, yes, your entire life is like an addiction within itself. And this is why I think when people think that when they start working on people pleasing and even going back to overly simplified definitions and explanations and even cures for it, it's that it is a journey. It's not a black and white thing where a certainty start working on like you'd be saying no instantly to every person, or it does not work like that. But the reason I compared to addiction is because please expect a relapse and that it's going to be decades of a journey. But can it improve with time and with so much awareness and talking to a specialist and actually working on it? Absolutely. But can it ever be zero or not bring up some sort of emotions or feelings or thoughts along the way?

Speaker 2: 33:22

I personally don't think so. If it's currently at a 10, can you get it down to roughly a two or three in your life? I think if you get to that stage, you're doing incredibly well. But even, as you had mentioned, you've been doing it for decades and even your kids were quite aware that you're on that journey of being able to say no to them, and they were even encouraging you at times, but it does not mean that we're still going to have that resistance of times and the compulsion to say yes. But I think the awareness is actually taking a breather, doing the work on ourselves, understanding the root of why in our backgrounds, and then eventually no will come out of our mouths when the time is right.

Speaker 1: 33:57

Well, like you said, I think that's a great start having the awareness and then looking at the root of where it comes from. There's so many different things that we can do along the journey, which I'm sure we'll get into in another episode. Those are the areas that we want to start and, I think, recognizing that all of us do it on some level, whether we want to admit it or not.

Speaker 2: 34:19

So it's been great to finally get to the subject of people pleasing, and hopefully this episode begins to build some awareness for people to actually have some food for thought in their own lives and maybe for some of the people around them. So thank you, Kim.

Speaker 1: 34:31

You're welcome, Gareth, and I'd like to say to all our listeners out there if you have some questions directly related to this, feel free to join us on Patreon or send us a message, write the question in a comment and we will do our best to address that in the next episode, because obviously we will come back and revisit this more than once.

Speaker 1: 34:56

So thank you, gareth. Thanks so much for listening. We hope you enjoyed this episode. If you would like to explore these topics more with us, please go to wwwpatreoncom. Forward slash practical spirituality podcast. Not only will that help us keep producing these shows, but you'll also get advanced access to each new episode. The opportunity to ask questions directly of Gareth and I. Input into what topics we will cover on the show. Access to exclusive content not available anywhere else. See you over on Patreon.